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1000yardstare 21st October 2008 02:38

Fast bowling in India on flat wickets. Bowlers with the best averages there

Donald 4 Tests 17 wickets at 16.11 econ 2.25 s/r 42.80
Walsh 7 Tests 43 wickets at 18.55 econ 2.87 s/r 38.70
Roberts 7 Tests 37 wickets at 19.81 econ 2.77 s/r 42.80
Steyn 3 Tests 15 wickets at 20.20 econ 3.56 s/r 34.00
McGrath 8 Tests 33 wickets at 21.30 econ 2.24 s/r 56.90
Gillespie 7 Tests 33 wickets at 21.72 econ 2.76 s/r 47.10
Holding 6 Tests 30 wickets at 22.10 econ 2.96 s/r 44.70
Hadlee 6 Tests 31 wickets at 22.22 econ 3.02 s/r 44.00
Willis 10 Tests 32 wickets at 22.37 econ 2.71 s/r 49.50
Hoggard 6 Tests 22 wickets at 23.31 econ 2.45 s/r 56.90
Gibbs 9 Tests 39 wickets at 23.88 econ 1.84 s/r 76.00

and the ones who didn't do so well

Younis 2 Tests 2 wickets at 76.50 econ 3.12 s/r 147.00
Vaas 5 Tests 11 wickets at 41.27 econ 2.78 s/r 88.80
Lee 2 Tests 4 wickets at 59.25 econ 3.16 s/r 112.50
Sami 6 Tests 14 wickets at 69.14 econ 3.65 s/r 113.50
Tanvir 2 Tests 5 wickets at 63.20 econ 3.76 s/r 100.80

High Druid Nathan Barley 23rd October 2008 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastBowlersUnion (Post 237312)
How do you tell if both of them haven't played Test cricket before?

Yes, absolutely it's a judgement call, but it's a judgment call on who is the best bowler at this moment, not a youth vs experience call.

1000yardstare 23rd October 2008 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley (Post 240382)
Yes, absolutely it's a judgement call, but it's a judgment call on who is the best bowler at this moment, not a youth vs experience call.

The selectors could look at

- the wicket and pick the bowler most likely to get wickets
- the bowler most likely to get runs as well
- most first class bowling experience
- who performed better in the warm up games

They could have already decided on which player was the reserve and give the chosen bowler a series especially if they have decided to blood a new young bowler if one of the fast bowlers were coming to the end of their career.

Take Johnson, he has another 10 years of bowling and they need to stick with him. If they had dropped him for a more experienced bowler after a poor match or two then where do they go when his replacement doesn't do well either. That has been England's problem, to find the third bowler for Gough and Caddick and then Hoggard and Harmison. There has been so much chopping and changing. Giddins, Silverwood, Cork, Tudor, Ormond, Johnson, Kirtley, Ali, Bicknell, Saggers, Plunkett, Mahmood, Lewis, Tremlett, Pattinson, a mixed bunch. In Gillespie's first three Tests he had taken 4 wickets at 46.00. McGrath in his first 5 Tests 12 wickets at 40.33. Many of the bowlers like Ormond, Tremlett, Johnson, Ali, Saggers, Lewis never got to more than 3 Tests.

If a bowler is going to play as an injury replacement for one Test then it is the bowler most likely to take the most wickets in the match. If it is for a series then I would go for the younger bowler but more important would be variety. Every bowler offering something different.

High Druid Nathan Barley 23rd October 2008 22:01

Yes, I'd agree with that.

elven highlord 23rd October 2008 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastBowlersUnion (Post 239509)
Fast bowling in India on flat wickets. Bowlers with the best averages there

Donald 4 Tests 17 wickets at 16.11 econ 2.25 s/r 42.80
Walsh 7 Tests 43 wickets at 18.55 econ 2.87 s/r 38.70
Roberts 7 Tests 37 wickets at 19.81 econ 2.77 s/r 42.80
Steyn 3 Tests 15 wickets at 20.20 econ 3.56 s/r 34.00
McGrath 8 Tests 33 wickets at 21.30 econ 2.24 s/r 56.90
Gillespie 7 Tests 33 wickets at 21.72 econ 2.76 s/r 47.10
Holding 6 Tests 30 wickets at 22.10 econ 2.96 s/r 44.70
Hadlee 6 Tests 31 wickets at 22.22 econ 3.02 s/r 44.00
Willis 10 Tests 32 wickets at 22.37 econ 2.71 s/r 49.50
Hoggard 6 Tests 22 wickets at 23.31 econ 2.45 s/r 56.90
Gibbs 9 Tests 39 wickets at 23.88 econ 1.84 s/r 76.00

and the ones who didn't do so well

Younis 2 Tests 2 wickets at 76.50 econ 3.12 s/r 147.00
Vaas 5 Tests 11 wickets at 41.27 econ 2.78 s/r 88.80
Lee 2 Tests 4 wickets at 59.25 econ 3.16 s/r 112.50
Sami 6 Tests 14 wickets at 69.14 econ 3.65 s/r 113.50
Tanvir 2 Tests 5 wickets at 63.20 econ 3.76 s/r 100.80

Fast bowlers?

1000yardstare 23rd October 2008 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by elven highlord (Post 240537)
Fast bowlers?

Oh my goodness, how did he manage to slip in there. :odd:

1000yardstare 25th October 2008 01:42

Our bowlers and the way they take their Test wickets and their dismissals by batting order - top order (1-3) middle (4-7) lower (8-11)

Bowled caught c/behind lbw
18.4% - 39.5% - 18.4% - 23.7% - Sidebottom
18.5% - 44.4% - 26.4% - 10.6% - Harmison
15.0% - 47.1% - 23.8% - 13.1% - Flintoff
18.2% - 50.0% - 27.3% - 04.5% - Broad
29.8% - 39.4% - 22.1% - 08.7% - Anderson
14.5% - 40.3% - 19.0% - 26.2% - Hoggard
18.4% - 43.9% - 07.9% - 29.0% - Panesar - stumped 3.5% - h/w - 0.9%

Top order - Middle - Lower
34.2% - 36.8% - 28.9% - Sidebottom
31.0% - 37.5% - 31.5% - Harmison
30.6% - 46.6% - 22.8% - Flintoff
27.3% - 31.8% - 40.9% - Broad
35.6% - 38.5% - 26.0% - Anderson
39.1% - 35.9% - 25.0% - Hoggard
23.7% - 43.0% - 33.3% - Panesar

geoff_boycotts_grandmother 25th October 2008 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastBowlersUnion (Post 240903)
Our bowlers and the way they take their Test wickets and their dismissals by batting order - top order (1-3) middle (4-7) lower (8-11)

Bowled caught c/behind lbw
18.4% - 39.5% - 18.4% - 23.7% - Sidebottom
18.5% - 44.4% - 26.4% - 10.6% - Harmison
15.0% - 47.1% - 23.8% - 13.1% - Flintoff
18.2% - 50.0% - 27.3% - 04.5% - Broad
29.8% - 39.4% - 22.1% - 08.7% - Anderson
14.5% - 40.3% - 19.0% - 26.2% - Hoggard
18.4% - 43.9% - 07.9% - 29.0% - Panesar - stumped 3.5% - h/w - 0.9%

Top order - Middle - Lower
34.2% - 36.8% - 28.9% - Sidebottom
31.0% - 37.5% - 31.5% - Harmison
30.6% - 46.6% - 22.8% - Flintoff
27.3% - 31.8% - 40.9% - Broad
35.6% - 38.5% - 26.0% - Anderson
39.1% - 35.9% - 25.0% - Hoggard
23.7% - 43.0% - 33.3% - Panesar

You'd have thought someone who got a high percentage of wickets clean bowled, would get a lot of lbws. Anderson's percentage of clean bowled looks incredibly high, yet his lbws is pitifully low. Broad's, Flintoff and Harmison's lbw totals are presumably partly explained by the bounce they get. But I'd have thought Anderson's would be more analogous to Hoggy's (and maybe Sideshow's, although its tricky to compare a left-arm lbw shout to a right-arm lbw shout). Hoggy got closer to the stumps, so I suppose the angles are different, and Jimmy will bowl more with his yorker and people dragging on wide long-hops.

1000yardstare 25th October 2008 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother (Post 240907)
You'd have thought someone who got a high percentage of wickets clean bowled, would get a lot of lbws. Anderson's percentage of clean bowled looks incredibly high, yet his lbws is pitifully low. Broad's, Flintoff and Harmison's lbw totals are presumably partly explained by the bounce they get. But I'd have thought Anderson's would be more analogous to Hoggy's (and maybe Sideshow's, although its tricky to compare a left-arm lbw shout to a right-arm lbw shout). Hoggy got closer to the stumps, so I suppose the angles are different, and Jimmy will bowl more with his yorker and people dragging on wide long-hops.

When you look at first class matches (excluding Tests) it changes to bowled 21.9%, caught 34.7%, caught behind 21.9% and lbw 20.8% for Anderson. Our best lbw bowlers are Hoggard and Panesar. Broad and Harmison get more caught behinds that the other bowlers because of their bounce though Flintoff, also tall doesn't get as many.

Chin Music 25th October 2008 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother (Post 240907)
You'd have thought someone who got a high percentage of wickets clean bowled, would get a lot of lbws. Anderson's percentage of clean bowled looks incredibly high, yet his lbws is pitifully low. Broad's, Flintoff and Harmison's lbw totals are presumably partly explained by the bounce they get. But I'd have thought Anderson's would be more analogous to Hoggy's (and maybe Sideshow's, although its tricky to compare a left-arm lbw shout to a right-arm lbw shout). Hoggy got closer to the stumps, so I suppose the angles are different, and Jimmy will bowl more with his yorker and people dragging on wide long-hops.

well that explains the anomaly with Anderson then with his rate of bowled's.

Minor Maggie 25th October 2008 11:33

Anderson does get some pretty spectacular bowled wickets though. Ganguly at Lords, Tendulkar at the Oval and McCullum at NZ stick long in the memory.

Dr Jezza 25th October 2008 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastBowlersUnion (Post 239509)
Fast bowling in India on flat wickets. Bowlers with the best averages there

Donald 4 Tests 17 wickets at 16.11 econ 2.25 s/r 42.80
Walsh 7 Tests 43 wickets at 18.55 econ 2.87 s/r 38.70
Roberts 7 Tests 37 wickets at 19.81 econ 2.77 s/r 42.80
Steyn 3 Tests 15 wickets at 20.20 econ 3.56 s/r 34.00
McGrath 8 Tests 33 wickets at 21.30 econ 2.24 s/r 56.90
Gillespie 7 Tests 33 wickets at 21.72 econ 2.76 s/r 47.10
Holding 6 Tests 30 wickets at 22.10 econ 2.96 s/r 44.70
Hadlee 6 Tests 31 wickets at 22.22 econ 3.02 s/r 44.00
Willis 10 Tests 32 wickets at 22.37 econ 2.71 s/r 49.50
Hoggard 6 Tests 22 wickets at 23.31 econ 2.45 s/r 56.90
Gibbs 9 Tests 39 wickets at 23.88 econ 1.84 s/r 76.00

and the ones who didn't do so well

Younis 2 Tests 2 wickets at 76.50 econ 3.12 s/r 147.00
Vaas 5 Tests 11 wickets at 41.27 econ 2.78 s/r 88.80
Lee 2 Tests 4 wickets at 59.25 econ 3.16 s/r 112.50
Sami 6 Tests 14 wickets at 69.14 econ 3.65 s/r 113.50
Tanvir 2 Tests 5 wickets at 63.20 econ 3.76 s/r 100.80

You missed out John Lever, of Essex and England, who played 8 tests in India between 1976/77 and 1981/82.

He took 37 wickets at 19.75 apiece with an economy rate of 2.74 and strike rate 43.1, putting him right near the top of your list.

1000yardstare 25th October 2008 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Jezza (Post 240950)
You missed out John Lever, of Essex and England, who played 8 tests in India between 1976/77 and 1981/82.

He took 37 wickets at 19.75 apiece with an economy rate of 2.74 and strike rate 43.1, putting him right near the top of your list.

Thanks Dr J

Donald 4 Tests 17 wickets at 16.11 econ 2.25 s/r 42.80
Walsh 7 Tests 43 wickets at 18.55 econ 2.87 s/r 38.70
Lever 8 Tests 37 wickets at 19.75 econ 2.74 s/r 43.10
Roberts 7 Tests 37 wickets at 19.81 econ 2.77 s/r 42.80
Steyn 3 Tests 15 wickets at 20.20 econ 3.56 s/r 34.00
McGrath 8 Tests 33 wickets at 21.30 econ 2.24 s/r 56.90
Gillespie 7 Tests 33 wickets at 21.72 econ 2.76 s/r 47.10
Holding 6 Tests 30 wickets at 22.10 econ 2.96 s/r 44.70
Hadlee 6 Tests 31 wickets at 22.22 econ 3.02 s/r 44.00
Willis 10 Tests 32 wickets at 22.37 econ 2.71 s/r 49.50
Hoggard 6 Tests 22 wickets at 23.31 econ 2.45 s/r 56.90

Fatslogger 25th October 2008 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother (Post 240907)
You'd have thought someone who got a high percentage of wickets clean bowled, would get a lot of lbws. Anderson's percentage of clean bowled looks incredibly high, yet his lbws is pitifully low. Broad's, Flintoff and Harmison's lbw totals are presumably partly explained by the bounce they get. But I'd have thought Anderson's would be more analogous to Hoggy's (and maybe Sideshow's, although its tricky to compare a left-arm lbw shout to a right-arm lbw shout). Hoggy got closer to the stumps, so I suppose the angles are different, and Jimmy will bowl more with his yorker and people dragging on wide long-hops.

I think it's mostly an issue of Anderson's angle of approach. He's too wide of the crease to get that many lbws except with the magic delivery that starts on the legs and swings a long way out and that ball is likely to bowl a batsman looking to work to leg anyway.

Marauding Bison 26th October 2008 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastBowlersUnion (Post 240911)
When you look at first class matches (excluding Tests) it changes to bowled 21.9%, caught 34.7%, caught behind 21.9% and lbw 20.8% for Anderson. Our best lbw bowlers are Hoggard and Panesar. Broad and Harmison get more caught behinds that the other bowlers because of their bounce though Flintoff, also tall doesn't get as many.

In Hoggard's case it is because he bowls wicket to wicket and can make it nip back. Panesar's come from pressure built by unrelenting accuracy and control. Batsmen pad up to straight balls or miss balls which pitch on the stumps and turn enough to hit (when if they did not turn would probably miss leg). He also gains from better umpires following Hair's lead and being more willing to give batsmen on the front foot and batsmen hiding the bat behind the pad (i.e. not really playing a stroke at all) out LBW to spinners than once they were.

1000yardstare 4th November 2008 19:49



Well it's definite, even if New Zealand selected Bond he has said he will never play for them again. As the ICL is not recognised and never likely to be I think we can say Bond (33) has retired from international cricket.

I don't blame him as New Zealand have really treated him badly. A wonderful bowler who had injury problems.

17 Tests 79 wickets at 22.39 econ 3.44 s/r 38.90
67 ODIs 125 wickets at 19.32 econ 4.20 s/r 27.50
9 20/20s 12 wickets at 20.33 econ 7.07 s/r 17.20

Best strike rate in ODIs by any bowler (1000 balls)
ODI hat-trick - White, Symonds, Bracken
Fastest bowler to 100 wickets in deliveries bowled
6 ODI and 3 Test MOMs
3rd best average in WCs - 30 wickets at 17.27

ODI / Test wickets
Top order 42.4% / 38%
Middle 35.2% / 44.3%
Tail 22.4% / 17.7%

Method ODIs/Tests
Bowled 24.8% / 19.0%
Caught 49.6% / 54.4%
Caught behind 17.6% / 15.2%
Lbw 8% / 11.4%

Fastest ball v Canada 95.3mph (anyone know of a faster one he has bowled)

Minor Maggie 4th November 2008 23:08

It's a shame we won't see him on the international scene again. NZ missed a trick with letting him go to the ICL.

High Druid Nathan Barley 6th November 2008 13:51

No, NZ missed a trick not selecting him despite him going to the ICL.

1000yardstare 7th November 2008 00:05

Time for a 6 monthly update on young bowlers 27 and under
(Johnson turned 27 four days ago and just gets in)
Last figure is the ICC rankings

25 Tests - 128 wickets at 22.51 econ 3.61 s/r 37.40 - Steyn (25) .....2
29 Tests - 104 wickets at 34.51 econ 3.64 s/r 56.70 - Anderson (26)....14
29 Tests - 100 wickets at 32.26 econ 3.28 s/r 58.80 - Pathan (24).....24
28 Tests - 91 wickets at 33.80 econ 3.86 s/r 52.40 - Malinga (25).....35
31 Tests - 69 wickets at 41.05 econ 3.26 s/r 75.40 - Mortaza (25).....41
16 Tests - 67 wickets at 31.55 econ 3.51 s/r 53.90 - Gul (24)......22
20 Tests - 63 wickets at 34.69 econ 3.60 s/r 57.80 - Taylor (24).....13
11 Tests - 51 wickets at 23.13 econ 3.03 s/r 45.70 - Asif (25).....15
14 Tests - 50 wickets at 31.46 econ 3.28 s/r 57.40 - Sreesanth (25).....33
12 Tests - 46 wickets at 33.32 econ 3.22 s/r 61.90 - Johnson (27).....28
13 Tests - 40 wickets at 39.10 econ 4.02 s/r 58.20 - RP Singh (22).....43
12 Tests - 34 wickets at 33.64 econ 3.26 s/r 61.70 - Sharma (20).....36
10 Tests - 32 wickets at 32.87 econ 3.71 s/r 53.00 - Morkel (24).....45
9 Tests - 28 wickets at 33.57 econ 2.98 s/r 67.50 - Patel (25).....51
9 Tests - 24 wickets at 43.41 econ 3.24 s/r 80.30 - Broad (22).....57
9 Tests - 23 wickets at 39.82 econ 3.57 s/r 66.80 - Plunkett (23) -
5 Tests - 16 wickets at 27.37 econ 3.79 s/r 43.20 - Zondeki (26) -
3 Tests - 5 wickets at 60.40 econ 4.37 s/r 82.80 - Tait (25).....88
2 Tests - 5 wickets at 39.60 econ 3.13 s/r 75.80 - Southee (19).....75
2 Tests - 5 wickets at 63.20 econ 3.76 s/r 100.80 - Tanvir (23).....83


Fast bowlers start reaching their peak at about 29 so some of the above have a few years to go yet (especially Sharma, Southee and Broad) and need to stay fit. Only 7 of them have played in Tests in the last 6 months.

104 ODIs -148 wickets at 29.57 econ 5.21 s/r 34.00 - Pathan (24).....56
97 ODIs - 127 wickets at 30.38 econ 4.90 s/r 37.20 - Anderson (26).....31
95 ODIs - 119 wickets at 31.64 econ 4.67 s/r 40.60 - Mortaza (25).....29
79 ODIs - 104 wickets at 24.39 econ 4.65 s/r 31.40 - Maharoof (24).....20
53 ODIs - 79 wickets at 25.58 econ 4.80 s/r 31.90 - Malinga (25).....28
50 ODIs - 75 wickets at 27.04 econ 4.67 s/r 34.60 - Taylor (24).....11
42 ODIs - 65 wickets at 23.46 econ 4.72 s/r 29.80 - Johnson (27).....3
48 ODIs - 64 wickets at 28.45 econ 4.91 s/r 34.70 - Gul (24).....26
41 ODIs - 59 wickets at 31.45 econ 5.78 s/r 32.60 - Sreesanth (25).....57
45 ODIs - 59 wickets at 31.54 econ 5.29 s/r 35.70 - RP Singh (22).....54
37 ODIs - 55 wickets at 26.21 econ 4.77 s/r 32.90 - Broad (22).....5
33 ODIs - 41 wickets at 30.00 econ 4.62 s/r 38.90 - Patel (25).....43
27 ODIs - 37 wickets at 34.05 econ 5.85 s/r 34.80 - Plunkett (23)
24 ODIs - 36 wickets at 28.11 econ 4.92 s/r 34.20 - Tanvir (23).....19
31 ODIs - 36 wickets at 33.27 econ 4.67 s/r 42.70 - Asif (25).....32
18 ODIs - 33 wickets at 23.45 econ 5.46 s/r 25.70 - Tait (25).....46
30 ODIs - 25 wickets at 36.76 econ 4.97 s/r 44.30 - Rampaul (24).....79
17 ODIs - 22 wickets at 31.59 econ 5.14 s/r 36.80 - Sharma (20).....50
14 ODIs - 21 wickets at 27.33 econ 4.85 s/r 33.80 - Morkel (24).....69
10 ODIs - 18 wickets at 21.38 econ 4.69 s/r 27.30 - Southee (19).....90
18 ODIs - 18 wickets at 39.88 econ 5.74 s/r 41.60 - Steyn (25) .....93
13 ODIs - 11 wickets at 45.81 econ 5.41 s/r 50.70 - Zondeki (26)
1 ODI - 1 wicket at 26.00 econ 3.71 s/r 42.00 - Hilfenhaus (25)

Kim 7th November 2008 18:09

Asif - what a waste.

Broads strike rate is concerning.


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