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Old 16th September 2017, 14:43   #81
Redmachine
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I think Bairstow could do a good job batting at 3.

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Bairstow
4. Root
5. Stokes
6. Hales
7. Ali
8. Foakes/Buttler (can see the benefits of both)
9. Woakes
10. Broad
11. Anderson

If we put that team out, I'd actually be more worried about our bowling. Broad needs to up his game and Woakes needs to regain fitness and rhythm. I'm not convinced by any of the possible back up bowlers either. Roland-Jones was decent in seamer friendly conditions, but I reckon he'll be very easy to hit on flat Aussie pitches. Wood barely gets above 85mph in test matches. Jake Ball hasn't impressed me one bit in an England shirt. Finn hasn't been brilliant for Middlesex this year and he hardly has good memories of Australia.

The good news is that Starc, Pattinson, Hazlewood and Cummins all have injury worries and are unlikely to get through 5 tests.
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Old 16th September 2017, 16:22   #82
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It would be rather odd to do it now as he seems to have improved a lot over the last 12 months, I'm no keeping expert and have never done it in my life but his movements do seem more consistent with where the ball is going now and I'd put him ahead of Buttler now unless there's been a big improvement there that I haven't seen?

It kind of made sense when Buttler was imo a slightly better keeper as he also seems suited if anything to batting at 7/8 whereas I think most are of the opinion that Bairstow would be a good #5 or even 4 (certainly better there than the specialist batsman we've tried other than Root obviously) but I think now Bairstow would take it as a real kick in the balls if he had the gloves taken off him after working so hard to get his game up to the level it is.
It would be less of a kick in the balls if it was to maximise his batting returns rather than a reflection of his keeping ability
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Old 16th September 2017, 16:55   #83
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It would be less of a kick in the balls if it was to maximise his batting returns rather than a reflection of his keeping ability
Maybe, but it would still be a kick in the balls given that his keeping has improved out of sight and he is keen to keep keeping. Also, I don't see any evidence to suggest that his batting would be any better without the gloves, so the proposal effectively amounts to suggesting that Foakes would score more runs than a specialist batsman. I think there's now less chance than ever of Bairstow being picked as a specialist batsman, and it's a bore to see this old dead hobby-horse still being flogged.
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Old 17th September 2017, 10:54   #84
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What about that stat of him averaging 20-30 more when England bat 2nd? Although there might be other factors at play there. I tend to agree that he should keep the gloves, but if taking them off him is best for the team I don't think the sensitivity of JB's clockweights should make a difference
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:01   #85
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I said it on the T20 thread yesterday and I'll say it here: Liam Plunkett should be part of the Ashes tour party and first reserve seamer.
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Old 17th September 2017, 11:42   #86
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I said it on the T20 thread yesterday and I'll say it here: Liam Plunkett should be part of the Ashes tour party and first reserve seamer.
6 first class wickets in 2017 is hardly a compelling case.
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:32   #87
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6 first class wickets in 2017 is hardly a compelling case.
Like Buttler, who thinks a good ODI series will get him playing as the number 7.
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Old 17th September 2017, 12:40   #88
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I said it on the T20 thread yesterday and I'll say it here: Liam Plunkett should be part of the Ashes tour party and first reserve seamer.
I can buy into that.
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Old 17th September 2017, 13:47   #89
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6 first class wickets in 2017 is hardly a compelling case.
I honestly think he's a better option on Australian pitches than Wood, Finn or the current 2015 vintage of Woakes we have.
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Old 17th September 2017, 15:46   #90
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I honestly think he's a better option on Australian pitches than Wood, Finn or the current 2015 vintage of Woakes we have.
It's not something I've thought about but it does make sense. I'd certainly expect him to keep his pace up for longer than Wood.
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Old 17th September 2017, 17:52   #91
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I honestly think he's a better option on Australian pitches than Wood, Finn or the current 2015 vintage of Woakes we have.
Wood is essential and can't see Woakes being much of a threat outside of Sydney. But you're right about Plunkett being the best reserve option. But I doubt anybody can predict what visionary picks this band of selectors will think are suitable for Oz.
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Old 17th September 2017, 19:04   #92
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Wood is not fit and can't bowl for five days. He's done as far as a test prospect is concerned.
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Old 17th September 2017, 21:23   #93
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Wood is not fit and can't bowl for five days. He's done as far as a test prospect is concerned.
Fitness is up to the ECB medics to decide. It's not reason enough to rule him out of selection. Certainly not at this stage.
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Old 18th September 2017, 00:48   #94
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I can buy into that.
Brown envelope to the ECB should do it.
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Old 18th September 2017, 00:49   #95
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Wood is not fit and can't bowl for five days. He's done as far as a test prospect is concerned.
Probably will play every test then.
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Old 18th September 2017, 00:53   #96
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What about that stat of him averaging 20-30 more when England bat 2nd? Although there might be other factors at play there. I tend to agree that he should keep the gloves, but if taking them off him is best for the team I don't think the sensitivity of JB's clockweights should make a difference
Is that really the stat?
I agree that it doesn't really matter what JB wants, but trying to convert him into a specialist batsman is still a worse idea than it ever was.
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Old 18th September 2017, 01:45   #97
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What about that stat of him averaging 20-30 more when England bat 2nd? Although there might be other factors at play there. I tend to agree that he should keep the gloves, but if taking them off him is best for the team I don't think the sensitivity of JB's clockweights should make a difference
It's the other way round, according to cricinfo he's averaging 51 batting first and 26 when England bat second.

I don't disagree with your general point about his feelings but if the mental process affects his batting is what I'd be more concerned about. He is an excellent outfielder though so there's that.
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Old 18th September 2017, 09:13   #98
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Re Bairstow, I can't see anyway that going into an Ashes series, England will suddenly decide to go back on what has been a relatively successful tactic. If Foakes or Buttler go, it will be as a reserve.
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Old 18th September 2017, 11:52   #99
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Is that really the stat?
I agree that it doesn't really matter what JB wants, but trying to convert him into a specialist batsman is still a worse idea than it ever was.
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It's the other way round, according to cricinfo he's averaging 51 batting first and 26 when England bat second.

I don't disagree with your general point about his feelings but if the mental process affects his batting is what I'd be more concerned about. He is an excellent outfielder though so there's that.
Yeah that's what I meant. He's worse when we bat 2nd, suggesting that after an innings of keeping his batting suffers, although that might well be due to the state of the game/performance of the side as a whole - e.g. England's 1st innings "effort" against South Africa at Trent Bridge.

I don't really buy the narrative that he would really be so precious about losing the gloves that his batting would go to pieces, or if he was so mentally fragile I'd be seriously worried about how he's going to cope down under, regardless of whether he keeps or not.

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Re Bairstow, I can't see anyway that going into an Ashes series, England will suddenly decide to go back on what has been a relatively successful tactic. If Foakes or Buttler go, it will be as a reserve.
True. I wouldn't be surprised if either gets a game as a specialist bat (like in India) though.
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Old 18th September 2017, 12:18   #100
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Yeah that's what I meant. He's worse when we bat 2nd, suggesting that after an innings of keeping his batting suffers, although that might well be due to the state of the game/performance of the side as a whole - e.g. England's 1st innings "effort" against South Africa at Trent Bridge ...
I looked at Prior's overall stats for England and he averaged more than 10 runs more in matches we batted first in than he did in matches we batted second in. Perhaps it's a factor for many wicketkeepers. Perhaps it's a factor for many non-wicketkeepers too, since spending however many overs fielding is always tiring. In any case, I would be cautious about making conclusions from that particular stat about Bairstow, not just because of this but also because the sample of test matches in which he's been our wicketkeeper and we fielded first is so far just 9 games.
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