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Old 25th September 2017, 18:37   #161
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Woakes' domestic record is hardly one of a one season wonder.

Not sure who the last bowler we capped with a better domestic record would have been. Maybe someone like Kirtley or Saggers?

TRJ has a similar average but is older and has fewer wickets.
GBG I still find it odd that you rate Woakes so highly, I'd have thought he's a perfect example of the kind of beige cricketer you hate.
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Old 25th September 2017, 18:48   #162
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Hard to argue with Jock's 8.
I like Woakes and obviously Anderson & Broad are in the top echelons of England's bowlers. But I cannot help wondering if, fitness permitting, any of them would make it into the Australian team - in Aussie conditions with a kookaburra ball. Which is especially worrying when bowling is our strong suit!
We have 2 1/2 spaces (I believe Stoneman has done enough to get a run)available in our top 5 which is scary. Personally I do not believe Malan or Westley should be on the plane, but there is a distinct lack of outstanding options. Time for the selectors to earn their money and pick players they believe have the skills to succeed.
The hopeful thing is that in Cook, Root, Stokes & perhaps Bairstow we have players who would get into a World XI - you can build a team around that.
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Old 25th September 2017, 19:43   #163
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GBG I still find it odd that you rate Woakes so highly, I'd have thought he's a perfect example of the kind of beige cricketer you hate.
I just respect the fact that he's a really good cricketer.

So good he clearly transcends my apparent disdain for beige cricketers in a way that a lesser player like Kallis never managed. When you've mercurial talents like Stokes and Broad in your attack, there's definitely room for a metronomical bowler like Woakes.

ps What other beige cricketers do I hate (I was pro the King of Spain fwiw)? Is this about Joe Denly?
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Old 25th September 2017, 19:53   #164
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Who are you thinking of?

I'm struggling to think of many who have taken 300+ wickets at 25 or under and haven't been successful.

Onions' fc bowling average was a run and a half higher (and I don't think he was a bad test bowler - the issue with him was one of durability not ability).

Those with similar records to Woakes like Sidebottom and TRJ did OK. I think you have to go back to Mike Smith (1 test) or Tim Munton (hello Chin) to find someone with that sort of records who didn't hold their own at test level.
You know what, I was reading the post and good old Timmy came to mind when I read the opening two lines before then scrolling down and you mentioning him for old time sake. I'm sure Summer might like to make mention of the likes of Derek Shakelton and Tom Cartright as the typical English medium pacers of yore who would struggle to make an impact in international cricket despite taking stacks of wickets and racking up 1000s of overs in domestic summers.

However in keeping up with good old 247 traditions, let me think of a good old English type seamer who would be a prolific first class wicket taker but a fairly bobbins (to use a northernism) test match bowler and none other than the adopted Chelmsfordian (by way of Nairobi), yes you guessed it DR Pringle!
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Old 25th September 2017, 20:58   #165
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Add Woakes and there is 8 who are nailed on for the first test.

Add in any 3 from the 3rd tier list - most likely who has a face that fits or those that are mates with the skipper.
The other nine in the squad are pretty much a lottery.
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Old 26th September 2017, 03:03   #166
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Dawson is a very good fielder.
Yup you're right I forgot about him when I went through a mental list, would be surprised (but not shocked) if he made the ashes squad though.
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Old 26th September 2017, 07:53   #167
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This is the squad that's been leaked in a couple of newspapers.

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Vince
4. Root
5. Malan
6. Stokes
7. Bairstow
8. Ali
9. Woakes
10. Broad
11. Anderson
12. Ballance
13. Foakes
14. Crane
15. Finn
16. Ball
17. Wood (Overton if not fit)

If this is true, Foakes would be the one who goes against Bayliss' claims that they'll be picking from players with experience (Crane has been in a few squads). I actually don't mind James Vince as he clearly has a bit of style, but it would be hard to argue against those questioning that logic, given his very average FC class over the last 3 seasons and his test average of 19.

Some will see Crane as an attacking selection. I think it's a bit naive. We aren't going to play two spinners out there. If Ali gets injured, I think we need somebody to be economical and contribute some runs. Dawson fits that role for me. Even Patel would've been a smarter option.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:37   #168
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I do see England playing two spinners and therefore 6 bowlers on some wickets. They are not going to play 3 seamers and two spinners which would be the correct way.

We would be doing very well if we had the same XI through 5 Tests. Australia did that in the last Ashes in Australia. We used 18 players.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:50   #169
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Who are you thinking of?
See Chin's post above. I would add Kevin Cooper of Notts as representing many fine county bowlers who, probably rightly, didn't play test cricket. Generally the problem is that very few bowlers can succeed in being accurate enough to keep test batsmen quiet. At the same time, trying to add pace can cause injuries. I'm hoping for more from Woakes though.
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:53   #170
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This is the squad that's been leaked in a couple of newspapers...
I'm pretty sure the selection meeting is today, in which case it's less of a leak and more idle speculation. I'd be pretty horrified if Vince and/or Westley made the cut as they are arguably the worst two batsmen I can recall representing England in the last 10 years (and there have been A LOT of duds recently).
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Old 26th September 2017, 10:54   #171
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There are about 20 others who could be in the squad, but let's not forget that the Lions also tour. In Australia, we will have another large squad of players around. We will have over 30 players who could possibly get in the team. Why do we need to take a reserve keeper, when Buttler or Foakes are playing top class cricket. I find the whole idea of a squad of 17 rather antiquated tbh. If, say, Anderson (heaven forbid!) strains a fetlock, Finn, Curran(s) etc, are going to be a few hours away and have a few overs under their belt. So it goes with the batsmen. Malan fails or needs to go home for personal reasons, then see who is batting well under Aussie conditions. Traditionally a newbie carries the drinks. Hopefully that won't be a player of the calibre of Finn, Rashid or Buttler.
Are the Lions definitely playing some first class matches or is it just a training camp?
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:37   #172
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Westley for me doesnt look like a player who would thrive in Oz - he may be ok but I just dont think he has the cojones to face the kind of barracking he will get from the crowds - he just looks too nervous and they will target that.
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Old 26th September 2017, 12:43   #173
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Originally Posted by Redmachine View Post
This is the squad that's been leaked in a couple of newspapers.

1. Cook
2. Stoneman
3. Vince
4. Root
5. Malan
6. Stokes
7. Bairstow
8. Ali
9. Woakes
10. Broad
11. Anderson
12. Ballance
13. Foakes
14. Crane
15. Finn
16. Ball
17. Wood (Overton if not fit)

If this is true, Foakes would be the one who goes against Bayliss' claims that they'll be picking from players with experience (Crane has been in a few squads). I actually don't mind James Vince as he clearly has a bit of style, but it would be hard to argue against those questioning that logic, given his very average FC class over the last 3 seasons and his test average of 19.

Some will see Crane as an attacking selection. I think it's a bit naive. We aren't going to play two spinners out there. If Ali gets injured, I think we need somebody to be economical and contribute some runs. Dawson fits that role for me. Even Patel would've been a smarter option.
That's pretty straight forward squad and I expect the official announcement to be nearly in line with this.

Not happy about Wood, Finn (his best years are behind him) and Crane but England seem hellbent on keeping certain players out so it is what it is.
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Old 26th September 2017, 13:40   #174
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Uh oh.
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Old 26th September 2017, 14:16   #175
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Whats Stokes been up to ?
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Old 26th September 2017, 16:48   #176
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Whats Stokes been up to ?
Fighting in Bristol after the last ODI.
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Old 26th September 2017, 17:14   #177
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Fighting in Bristol after the last ODI.
The only surprising thing about that is a crime getting reported in clifton, hope he didn't break any knuckles.
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Old 26th September 2017, 17:24   #178
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The only surprising thing about that is a crime getting reported in clifton, hope he didn't break any knuckles.
Lets hope he is innocent - ABH varies from Community Service to 3 Years in jail.
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Old 26th September 2017, 18:23   #179
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Lets hope he is innocent - ABH varies from Community Service to 3 Years in jail.
Other guy probably wound up but researching this there it doesn't seem there's a provocation defence for any crime other than murder. We need a legal eagle on the board to explain the likely consequences.
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Old 26th September 2017, 18:34   #180
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Other guy probably wound up but researching this there it doesn't seem there's a provocation defence for any crime other than murder. We need a legal eagle on the board to explain the likely consequences.
Provocation would be mitigation rather than a defence.

I suspect they'll argue it was self-defence, which is how Steven Gerrard got off when he punched that DJ for not playing the song he wanted.
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