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Old 14th January 2017, 15:53   #41
Ali TT
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Ashwin might benefit from a big home advantage but he's been/is ranked as the world's best bowler and averages 35 with the bat. His record compares very favourably with the greatest all-rounders of all time.
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Old 14th January 2017, 17:48   #42
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Ashwin might benefit from a big home advantage but he's been/is ranked as the world's best bowler and averages 35 with the bat. His record compares very favourably with the greatest all-rounders of all time.
The past wasn't always as good as we remember
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Old 14th January 2017, 18:27   #43
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Ashwin might benefit from a big home advantage but he's been/is ranked as the world's best bowler and averages 35 with the bat. His record compares very favourably with the greatest all-rounders of all time.
Good point. Ashwin has batted a reasonable amount at 6 now, in addition to his excellence as a bowler. Obviously Sobers and Kallis were vastly better batsmen but arguably equally inferior bowlers, I'd say, with both averaging a fair bit over 30 with the ball. Ashwin actually beats quite a few guys you'd regard as premium level all rounders such as Dev, Botham and Flintoff with both bat and ball, too.

Shakib is a pretty seriously good cricketer too, although one who's not really looked top quality in either discipline, it has to be said. He's averaging over 40 with the bat now though and 32 with the ball (bowing this test not yet included, batting is, so being a bit generous but still).
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Old 14th January 2017, 21:07   #44
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I think if you remove Zimbabwe from Shakib's stats, they are less impressive.

If I'm honest, I remain unconvinced by Ashwin's overall bowling record. He's not really achieved, or even played very much, outside India, bar a good series in the Caribbean. Until he shows he is a threat in places like Australia or England I'd rank him a long way behind Warne and Murali, even Swann, Kumble and a couple of Pakistani spinners of years gone by.
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Old 14th January 2017, 21:48   #45
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Surprised that he averaged about 30 with the ball in the series against us given he seemed to take stacks of wickets (that might have been before the last day). Then again, most of the pitches were pretty dead for most of the time.

Goes without saying he's nowhere near Warne or Murali yet. Agree he's probably behind Swann for now, too. Comfortably the best off spinner going, though, at present. His levels of nous are probably what stand him out most.
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Old 14th January 2017, 22:15   #46
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There was an 'age'? Kallis only retired barely 3 years ago, and their careers were 20 years apart! Sobers, 20 years before that. They're a very rare commodity, but someone will come along again. Unfortunately, any batsman whom averages into the 40s and higher tends to treat their bowling as an after-thought or disregard it completely. Which is ridiculous since bowlers are expected to contribute with the bat or face being criticized.
The age of the all rounder, imo anyway, is from the late 70s to the end of Kallis career.

In that time there were the fab four, Akram, Pollock, Kallis himself, Mahmoud, Razzaq and Flintoff. I've missed out a few names here and there and some bits and pieces type of all rounders (Vaas and Afridi for eg). Kallis career spread into the very modern game of today. But in cricketers who have largely made their debuts in the 21st century, who has come close to being a top all rounder?

Hassan possibly.

Like I said, the age of the genuine all rounder is gone and the transference of skill sets, amount of cricket, t20 leagues etc etc etc only add to the dilemma. I do not think we will ever see another great all rounder in either test or ODI cricket.
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Old 14th January 2017, 23:35   #47
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Yet Ashwin has a better record than almost all of them?
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Old 15th January 2017, 00:05   #48
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The age of the all rounder, imo anyway, is from the late 70s to the end of Kallis career.

In that time there were the fab four, Akram, Pollock, Kallis himself, Mahmoud, Razzaq and Flintoff. I've missed out a few names here and there and some bits and pieces type of all rounders (Vaas and Afridi for eg). Kallis career spread into the very modern game of today. But in cricketers who have largely made their debuts in the 21st century, who has come close to being a top all rounder?

Hassan possibly.

Like I said, the age of the genuine all rounder is gone and the transference of skill sets, amount of cricket, t20 leagues etc etc etc only add to the dilemma. I do not think we will ever see another great all rounder in either test or ODI cricket.
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Yet Ashwin has a better record than almost all of them?
I'm not really convinced that Azhar Mahmood and Abdul Razzaq are definitive proof of any golden age of all-rounders.
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Old 15th January 2017, 10:03   #49
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I'm not really convinced that Azhar Mahmood and Abdul Razzaq are definitive proof of any golden age of all-rounders.
Frankly laughable suggestions, really, to suit a narrative that's not supported either by a particularly compelling argument, as if anything, players strive more to be multi dimensional now, or the actual evidence.

Interesting arguments about Shakib and Ashwin. You can debunk the former more easily than the latter, I think. Yes Ashwin doesn't have an exceptional bowling record away from home but it's still decent, certainly by the standards of contemporary spinners and his batting record similarly is plausible enough away. Most players do better in home conditions though, so I think you have to take their averages largely at face value.
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Old 15th January 2017, 11:30   #50
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Frankly laughable suggestions, really, to suit a narrative that's not supported either by a particularly compelling argument, as if anything, players strive more to be multi dimensional now, or the actual evidence.

Interesting arguments about Shakib and Ashwin. You can debunk the former more easily than the latter, I think. Yes Ashwin doesn't have an exceptional bowling record away from home but it's still decent, certainly by the standards of contemporary spinners and his batting record similarly is plausible enough away. Most players do better in home conditions though, so I think you have to take their averages largely at face value.
Naturally most players do perform better at home. For certain players types of players (think our swing bowlers who are innocuous away) that difference will be exacerbated and spin bowlers in Asia are right up there. I'd argue that the very best spinners are able to do it almost anywhere: Warne actually averaged more at home than away, although the difference isn't really significant statistically. Of course he had a poor record in India and WI, and Murali also had a mediocre record in India and Oz but both of them had good records everywhere else.

My reservations of Ashwin are not so much record-related, just the fact that he's played such a small number of games in different countries (and in three of the toughest away tasks for a spinner: England, Oz and SA he's not done well). If he proves himself in those conditions when he returns, then fair enough. For now, though, I'd have him down as very good, but not quite a great.
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Old 16th January 2017, 02:38   #51
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Agree with you about Aswin's bowling Bestie but you have to be highly impressed with him as an all rounder, even if you don't have him right up there in the very front rank of bowlers.
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Old 16th January 2017, 14:55   #52
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Surprised that he averaged about 30 with the ball in the series against us given he seemed to take stacks of wickets (that might have been before the last day). Then again, most of the pitches were pretty dead for most of the time.

Goes without saying he's nowhere near Warne or Murali yet. Agree he's probably behind Swann for now, too. Comfortably the best off spinner going, though, at present. His levels of nous are probably what stand him out most.
Well the first match killed his figures for the entire series, when you start out with 3-230 it's hard to pull that average down before 30, same with Shah in the summer (although that was the second game in the series).
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Old 16th January 2017, 19:48   #53
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6 is considered the all rounders place though they do bat in different positions. Most of these are new to the position and learning.

England - Stokes - 19 Tests batting - 28.58 bowling 40.44
Australia - Marsh - (8) 26.00 - 30.83
New Zealand - Anderson - (11) 31.35 - 38.46 or
New Zealand - Neesham - (9) 38.25 - 39.33
India - Jadeja? (13) 21.57 - 27.22
Bangladesh - Al-Hasan (42) 39.76 - 33.31
South Africa - Duminy (29) 35.55 - 37.17
West Indies - Holder (10) 29.66 - 33.31

I don't know who the all rounder is for Pakistan or Sri Lanka. Pakistan looks like 7 batsmen and 4 bowlers. Sarfraz Ahmed 46.28 I would call a batsman although he keeps but looking for a batsman/bowler all rounder. Afridi was the last.

Sobers 57.78 - 34.03
Kapil Dev 31.05 - 29.64
Pollock 32.31 - 23.11
Botham 33.54 - 28.40
Kallis 55.37 - 32.54
Hi folks,

New poster here so I'll make a plea for any kicking to only be done with kid boots.

Another all rounder from yesteryear with surprisingly (to my mind anyway) good stats and so probably worth a mention is Tony Greig. From his 58 Tests, a batting average a shade above 40 (40.43) with eight centuries and a bowling average of 32.20 with 141 wickets including two tenfers.

For a saddo like me, the tenfer figure is particularly interesting. A feat never achieved in Tests by the greatest all rounder Sobers or the not quite so good Flintoff plus various bowlers down the ages including Lindwall, Garner, Willis, Gough and Lee.

Cheers,
HJ.
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Old 16th January 2017, 20:06   #54
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Hi folks,

New poster here so I'll make a plea for any kicking to only be done with kid boots.

Another all rounder from yesteryear with surprisingly (to my mind anyway) good stats and so probably worth a mention is Tony Greig. From his 58 Tests, a batting average a shade above 40 (40.43) with eight centuries and a bowling average of 32.20 with 141 wickets including two tenfers.

For a saddo like me, the tenfer figure is particularly interesting. A feat never achieved in Tests by the greatest all rounder Sobers or the not quite so good Flintoff plus various bowlers down the ages including Lindwall, Garner, Willis, Gough and Lee.

Cheers,
HJ.
Hi from another Hector!
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Old 16th January 2017, 20:17   #55
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Thanks, Hector. And blimey! The only other Hectors I've heard of up until now have been the composer Berlioz and the mutt on the telly with his own house!
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Old 16th January 2017, 23:27   #56
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The age of the all rounder, imo anyway, is from the late 70s to the end of Kallis career.

In that time there were the fab four, Akram, Pollock, Kallis himself, Mahmoud, Razzaq and Flintoff. I've missed out a few names here and there and some bits and pieces type of all rounders (Vaas and Afridi for eg). Kallis career spread into the very modern game of today. But in cricketers who have largely made their debuts in the 21st century, who has come close to being a top all rounder?
None of those players you mentioned would have been selected on either skill alone (Pollock as a specialist bat? Kallis as a front line quick?) I can only see Flintoff perhaps at one point in time or another realistically being selected in Englands top six as a bat or on merit as a first choice bowler. And if Razzaq and Madmoud qualify as 'all-rounders of a golden era' then Mitchell Starc is Keith Miller incarnate.
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Old 17th January 2017, 03:20   #57
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None of those players you mentioned would have been selected on either skill alone (Pollock as a specialist bat? Kallis as a front line quick?) I can only see Flintoff perhaps at one point in time or another realistically being selected in Englands top six as a bat or on merit as a first choice bowler. And if Razzaq and Madmoud qualify as 'all-rounders of a golden era' then Mitchell Starc is Keith Miller incarnate.
Kallis was good enough to be a first or second change seamer at one point. Maybe not in the latter stages but in his mid 20s.
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Old 17th January 2017, 10:55   #58
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Thanks, Hector. And blimey! The only other Hectors I've heard of up until now have been the composer Berlioz and the mutt on the telly with his own house!
There was also the Hector who got his ass kicked by Achilles in the Trojan War.

Any road up, welcome to the forum!
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Old 17th January 2017, 11:10   #59
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There was also Hector 'Macho' Camacho, the first man to win World titles at seven different weights.

And Hector Elizondo, who used to specialise in playing film baddies but in recent years has featured more often in TV series roles.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:16   #60
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There was also the Hector who got his ass kicked by Achilles in the Trojan War.

Any road up, welcome to the forum!
Slightly before my time but thanks anyway, D/L.

Back to the subject of all rounders and one who was of my time - which shows what an old git I am - was Mike Procter. Denied the Test career his efforts and abilities merited by circumstances beyond his control but still a great cricketer imo.

HJ
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