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Old 17th January 2017, 12:02   #61
JRC67
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Slightly before my time but thanks anyway, D/L.

Back to the subject of all rounders and one who was of my time - which shows what an old git I am - was Mike Procter. Denied the Test career his efforts and abilities merited by circumstances beyond his control but still a great cricketer imo.

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I thought Clive Rice was even better.
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Old 17th January 2017, 12:49   #62
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According to Morrissey, Hector was the first of the gang to die.
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Old 17th January 2017, 13:30   #63
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According to Morrissey, Hector was the first of the gang to die.
Assuming you're not quoting the former Everton winger Johnny Morrissey, you've got me there.
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Old 17th January 2017, 16:01   #64
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Kallis was good enough to be a first or second change seamer at one point. Maybe not in the latter stages but in his mid 20s.
Don't get me wrong, 295 test wickets is a phenomenal effort, and Jacques was very quick when he was younger, but I don't believe with their strength in fast bowling he would have been selected ahead of Pollock, Donald, Steyn, Ntini etc. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are the only two nations he averaged less than 30 against. If he had of just focused on his bowling as his main skill, then maybe. He is still the closest I think we'll see to a colossal all-rounder for a very long time, so I don't want to rubbish him too much.
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Old 17th January 2017, 16:54   #65
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Don't get me wrong, 295 test wickets is a phenomenal effort, and Jacques was very quick when he was younger, but I don't believe with their strength in fast bowling he would have been selected ahead of Pollock, Donald, Steyn, Ntini etc. Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are the only two nations he averaged less than 30 against. If he had of just focused on his bowling as his main skill, then maybe. He is still the closest I think we'll see to a colossal all-rounder for a very long time, so I don't want to rubbish him too much.
He wouldn't but they didn't all overlap. His career pretty much spanned all there careers. South Africa often go with 4 seamers and in his mid 20s he would have got in at least as second change.
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Old 17th January 2017, 18:10   #66
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He wouldn't but they didn't all overlap. His career pretty much spanned all there careers. South Africa often go with 4 seamers and in his mid 20s he would have got in at least as second change.
Agree with this, also it's a bit of a fallacy to define a genuine all-rounder as someone who would only get in to the national team on either batting or bowling as that depends so much on the strength of the team for instance if Dev,Botham,Hadlee or Imran had been West Indian how many would have got in to that team during their time on their bowling alone or if they did for how long whereas if they were Zimbabwean they'd have all been shoe in's even at the tail end of their careers when Zimbabwe got test status on either count even Hadlee at past 40!
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Old 17th January 2017, 20:18   #67
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Agree with this, also it's a bit of a fallacy to define a genuine all-rounder as someone who would only get in to the national team on either batting or bowling as that depends so much on the strength of the team for instance if Dev,Botham,Hadlee or Imran had been West Indian how many would have got in to that team during their time on their bowling alone or if they did for how long whereas if they were Zimbabwean they'd have all been shoe in's even at the tail end of their careers when Zimbabwe got test status on either count even Hadlee at past 40!
For a Zimbabwean player to be considered a world-class all-rounder would be much more difficult, as he would not have the luxury of being able to play against his own side, and every team he did play would beat the absolute snot out of you, with no real class players to back you up. I think all those players you mentioned, despite the obvious talent, would struggle in that sort of environment.
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Old 17th January 2017, 22:26   #68
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For a Zimbabwean player to be considered a world-class all-rounder would be much more difficult, as he would not have the luxury of being able to play against his own side, and every team he did play would beat the absolute snot out of you, with no real class players to back you up. I think all those players you mentioned, despite the obvious talent, would struggle in that sort of environment.
It was more about the flawed concept of a player needing to be a sure pick without either their batting or bowling to get in to their test side to be classed as an all-rounder. I think it's just better to class an all-rounder as someone who makes a significant contribution with bat and ball on something of a consistent basis.

Shakib is a world class all rounder despite being in the weakest test nation for most of his career and would obviously get in their team without one of his abilities but he would struggle to get in half the test teams as just a batsman and possibly a few as just a bowler at the beginning of his test career.
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Old 18th January 2017, 01:38   #69
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Fair to say that Shakib would get into NZ's team on either discipline at any stage. Particularly his bowling, but his batting wouldn't be far off. Right now, he's vastly better than Henry Nicholls.

I presume that Shakib would easily get into most teams (excl. India and Pakistan/Sri Lanka depending on pitches) on his bowling and arguably into about half as a batsman.
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Old 20th January 2017, 07:34   #70
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For a Zimbabwean player to be considered a world-class all-rounder would be much more difficult, as he would not have the luxury of being able to play against his own side,
To be fair few of the big sides deigned to play Zimbabwe unless they had to, Sri Lanka played them more than most and Murali took 87 of his 800 wickets against them (89 vs Bangladesh)

Zimbabwe vs

AUS x3
ENG x6
SAF x8
WIN x8
IND x11
BAN x14
PAK x17
SRL x17
NZL x17

Not easy for a Zimbabwean who truly could bat and bowl to a good level in both disciplines to make a name as an all-rounder because they play so few Tests.

And to put it into perspective Zimbabwe played their first Test in 1992, have played 101 of which they've won 11. Bangladesh played their first Test in 2000 and have played 96 Tests, only five less than a side playing Tests 8 years longer albeit with a 'break', and Bangladesh have won 8 - FIVE of those against Zimbabwe.
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Old 20th January 2017, 12:32   #71
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Old 20th January 2017, 21:12   #72
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Good article. The point that Shakib has achieved what he has despite being in an indifferent team is an important one, especially in considering his bowling record, as you're far more likely to get hit around if the rest of the attack is weak and as a spinner there's a relatively high chance you'll get saddled with a lot of bowling when your team is getting taken apart.
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Old 20th January 2017, 22:57   #73
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Another point completely removed from Shakib or all-rounders to be fair was that I realised Jason Gillespie never took 10 wickets in a match, pretty amazing for someone who took 259 wickets @ 26.13. I suppose that's completely down to the lack of opportunity to take 10 wickets when playing with McGrath and Warne but you'd have thought he'd have done it on a seam friendly wicket where Warne wasn't needed at some point.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 15:38   #74
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Another point completely removed from Shakib or all-rounders to be fair was that I realised Jason Gillespie never took 10 wickets in a match, pretty amazing for someone who took 259 wickets @ 26.13. I suppose that's completely down to the lack of opportunity to take 10 wickets when playing with McGrath and Warne but you'd have thought he'd have done it on a seam friendly wicket where Warne wasn't needed at some point.
With more double hundreds than 10 wicket matches obviously more of a batting all-rounder than a bowling all-rounder.

Not sure why tailenders like McGrath and Warne - who never even managed a test century - are being mentioned on the same thread as Dizzy, Imran Khan, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Garfield Sobers, Sir Ronnie Irani, Sir Richard Hadlee etc.
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Old 23rd January 2017, 23:17   #75
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With more double hundreds than 10 wicket matches obviously more of a batting all-rounder than a bowling all-rounder.

Not sure why tailenders like McGrath and Warne - who never even managed a test century - are being mentioned on the same thread as Dizzy, Imran Khan, Sir Ian Botham, Sir Garfield Sobers, Sir Ronnie Irani, Sir Richard Hadlee etc.
Nice :-)
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Old 16th August 2018, 09:52   #76
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Woakes is our next proper allrounder.
A few in the England squad.

43 Tests batting 34.28 6 100s /32.97 4 5fers - Stokes
50 Tests batting 32.40 5 100s /40.68 4 5fers - Ali
25 Tests batting 32.25 1 100 /33.05 2 5fers - Woakes

3 Tests batting 36.75 0 100s /23.50 0 5fers - Curran

Potential for Rashid f/c 33.03 10 100s / 34.93 19 5fers
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Old 16th August 2018, 10:24   #77
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Another point completely removed from Shakib or all-rounders to be fair was that I realised Jason Gillespie never took 10 wickets in a match, pretty amazing for someone who took 259 wickets @ 26.13. I suppose that's completely down to the lack of opportunity to take 10 wickets when playing with McGrath and Warne but you'd have thought he'd have done it on a seam friendly wicket where Warne wasn't needed at some point.
Bob Willis never took 10 wickets in a test, and he took over 300. Strange.
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Old 17th August 2018, 00:56   #78
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Old 17th August 2018, 06:18   #79
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De Lisle's 'multi-taskers' is probably a more accurate term than 'all-rounders'
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Old 17th August 2018, 08:24   #80
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De Lisle's 'multi-taskers' is probably a more accurate term than 'all-rounders'
Pushing it with Currant and Roland-Jones to fit his hypothesis.
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