Batting and Batsmen thread

[slop]

Originally Posted by CDogg16

I can't think of many batsmen coming through now who look as though they could become great Test batsmen, and by that I mean able to dig and rescue draws. Once Cook and Amla go there won't be many left in the game. Will India ever produce another Dravid again, or the Windies a Chanderpaul? More likely these were the last of their kind, which is a shame.

Faf du Plessis, for one, can dig in for a draw. So can AB. Sometimes a bit too much, and they may not become great. South Africa tend to produce dour batsmen as their pitches are fairly lively in the domestic game. Not sure about England or India, but I feel you're being a bit over-pessimistic.

West Indies are going to struggle to produce great batsmen, but T20 is not the main cause of this.

[Notts Exile]

Pujara is most definitely a Test style batsman too.

[CDogg16]

Originally Posted by slop

Faf du Plessis, for one, can dig in for a draw. So can AB. Sometimes a bit too much, and they may not become great. South Africa tend to produce dour batsmen as their pitches are fairly lively in the domestic game. Not sure about England or India, but I feel you're being a bit over-pessimistic.

West Indies are going to struggle to produce great batsmen, but T20 is not the main cause of this.

Originally Posted by Notts Exile

Pujara is most definitely a Test style batsman too.

Maybe I am being a little pessimistic. Pujara is a good shout, not sure about AB though. I know he dug in against India in a losing cause, but his dismissals against England at times looked as though he wasn't up for a scrap.

[slop]

Originally Posted by CDogg16

Maybe I am being a little pessimistic. Pujara is a good shout, not sure about AB though. I know he dug in against India in a losing cause, but his dismissals against England at times looked as though he wasn't up for a scrap.

That was a reprise of his innings here which was also attempted (but ultimately failed) here.

[Ali TT]

Originally Posted by CDogg16

Maybe I am being a little pessimistic. Pujara is a good shout, not sure about AB though. I know he dug in against India in a losing cause, but his dismissals against England at times looked as though he wasn't up for a scrap.

So AB is not a classic test player in the same way that Steve Smith has been found out, I presume?

Humouring you and your mythical Tavaresque test batsman, there are others around currently, some quite young -
Murali Vijay
Kane Williamson
Tom Latham
Kraigg Brathwaite
Dean Elgar
Asad Shafiq

Lots of teams in transition currently, so we don't know how some sides will develop or bounce back.

[D/L]

Originally Posted by CDogg16

I would argue the other way and say T20 cricket has had a negative effect on Test batting. Yes, we see some wonderful hundreds scored at quicker than a run a ball, but the amount of collapses taking place shows that the ability to dig in and bat in tough conditions is a dying art.

Indeed. I'd add that test cricket is the only format where an aptitude for the other two can be an asset. I'd agree that since the advent of T20 there has been a marked decline in the ability to save a test match with patience and obduracy.

[thedon]

I think not only batting, but the standard of cricket in every aspect has declined in recent times. This seems commensurate with the rise in popularity of t20, but who knows.

[Fatslogger]

People have been complaining about the decline in the standard of cricket since the 1890s, if not before. In fact, before the terrible decline in modern attention spans and written English, DL was probably writing in to the Times to say as much.

[D/L]

Originally Posted by Fatslogger

People have been complaining about the decline in the standard of cricket since the 1890s, if not before. In fact, before the terrible decline in modern attention spans and written English, DL was probably writing in to the Times to say as much.

No, I don't think I have ever written to any newspaper on the subject of (other) people complaining about the decline in the standard of cricket.

To add a little clarity, perhaps the intention of the above post was to raise the possibility that I had complained to the papers myself.

[Chin Music]

Originally Posted by D/L

No, I don't think I have ever written to any newspaper on the subject of (other) people complaining about the decline in the standard of cricket.

To add a little clarity, perhaps the intention of the above post was to raise the possibility that I had complained to the papers myself.

I thought he put the emphasis on you having written in to newspapers back in the 1890s?

[D/L]

Well done on garbling it further!

[Ali TT]

The Times is southern muck now and was southern muck back in the 1890s, so I can't imagine D/L ever wasting his time by sending correspondence to it.

[D/L]

Originally Posted by Ali TT

The Times is southern muck now and was southern muck back in the 1890s, so I can't imagine D/L ever wasting his time by sending correspondence to it.

I fell out with the "Thunderer" when Murdoch bought it. Possibly right numbers; possibly wrong order.

Some good things have come out of the South. The M1 and the M6 spring to mind.

[Fatslogger]

Originally Posted by Chin Music

I thought he put the emphasis on you having written in to newspapers back in the 1890s?

Correct.

[thedon]

Originally Posted by Fatslogger

People have been complaining about the decline in the standard of cricket since the 1890s, if not before.

Thanks for such peerless insight fatslogger. lol. Are you inferring from this that the apparent drop towards club standard in test cricket at the highest levels doesn't exist at all? Or it's all good, because it might have happened before? Something else?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

[slop]

You've taken the post in isolation and ignored that it refers to T20 being blamed for the decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

[Ali TT]

Originally Posted by slop

You've taken the post in isolation and ignored that it refers to T20 being blamed for the decline

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Thank you for saving me the effort of doing the same

[D/L]

Originally Posted by Chin Music

I thought he put the emphasis on you having written in to newspapers back in the 1890s?

Originally Posted by Fatslogger

Correct.

Nice piece of revisionism and again, well done on inferring something from something that was never implied in the first place!

[D/L]

Originally Posted by thedon

Thanks for such peerless insight fatslogger. lol. Are you inferring from this that the apparent drop towards club standard in test cricket at the highest levels doesn't exist at all? Or it's all good, because it might have happened before? Something else?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

[Ali TT]

Twenty 20 cricket, or limited over cricket more generally, may have caused some decline in the defensive technique and the durability of test batsmen (although I'm not convinced this is competently true, lineups got blown away in the past too).

I think, however, it is one of only a number of contributing factors. Flatter wickets and bigger bats over the past two decades have made batsmen more confident in their ability to dominate through scoring rather than wait for the bad ball and leave/flat bat all the good ones. Defensive play is less necessary if you are scoring more freely and fields need to be set back.

I believe, genuinely and not to wind up, that playing on increasingly flat wickets has been an issue for Aussie batsmen for many years, which is why they've consistently struggled in England and Asia over the past decade. Even in 2005 their much vaunted batting lineup was found wanting against swing in England.

The more intensive touring schedules mean that sides currently seem less willing to battle through when up against it. A lot of test wins currently have seen whichever side gets the first advantage press it home pretty comprehensively. This, I think, is compounded by a number of current sides having relatively green batting lineups, or ones with clear holes in then.

Finally, DRS has shifted the burden of proof away from giving the batsman the benefit of the doubt, as might have been the case more in the past.

Test cricket is being changed by t20, I have no doubt, but some of the trends run back to before its existence or have developed independently. For all the lack of defensive technique we now have batsmen who have a far wider and exciting array of attacking shots than ever before.

.