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Old 6th September 2018, 16:20   #21
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Perhaps there is a worry about Leach's action being scrutinised by international umpires.
Lol. Perhaps. Or maybe that is all sorted.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:25   #22
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Perhaps there is a worry about Leach's action being scrutinised by international umpires.
I think the worry is the winter series isn't being played at Taunton.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:30   #23
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To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever suspected Leach's action.
It was judged illegal in routine filming by England, but nobody had actually previously (or since) questioned it.
I believe the fact is that Flower didn't like him - his batting/fielding is not the best.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:36   #24
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I think the worry is the winter series isn't being played at Taunton.
Well Taunton did its best impression of Colombo this week so maybe he'll do well there.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:37   #25
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To the best of my knowledge nobody has ever suspected Leach's action.
It was judged illegal in routine filming by England, but nobody had actually previously (or since) questioned it.
I believe the fact is that Flower didn't like him - his batting/fielding is not the best.
"Face doesn't fit" ?
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:52   #26
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Well Taunton did its best impression of Colombo this week so maybe he'll do well there.
I get a chuckle out of “Cyderabad” or “Tauntittagong” myself.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:54   #27
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Cook's final fling may be the biggest thing about the final test.
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Old 6th September 2018, 16:55   #28
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Unchanged team, WJB back as keeper, batting as per second innings.
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So Bairstow chucks a strop and gets the gloves back. Except we know that if he bats at 5 he won't score runs.
I'm not sure we know that. Maybe we know that wherever he bats, people will use his batting position (rather than his actual batting) to explain why he isn't doing as well as they might like.

Many of the players are chucking strops about their batting position now. Root at 3 or 4 doesn't make much difference, he's still going to get between 40 and 60. When he moved from 4 to 3 earlier this season he said it was because now that he's been skipper for a while and settled into the role he's ready to take a bit more batting responsibility. By implication, his move back down to 4 is because he can't hack the responsibility after all. More likely anything he says to justify any move up or down is just lies: it looks like he wants to bat at 4 because he wants to, and Bayliss wants him to bat at 3 because he wants him to, and they're still playing silly buggers about it because that's what they do. Elsewhere I think Stokes gets to stay in his middle-order comfort zone because it was decided some time ago that neither the captain nor the coach dares ask him to move out of it. No strop necessary in his case, he can simply do it with his eyes and jaw. As for Bairstow, if he wants to be a senior player he'll have to strop about his role in the team like the other senior players do (including Broad and Anderson), otherwise he wouldn't really be able to call himself a senior player, would he? Buttler and Ali seem to be well-mannered and non-Yorkshire enough not to wave their willies around in such an obvious way, so they'll likely be the ones to facilitate the keeping of the peace between the big boys. It's a transparent shambles. Bayliss should have been sacked years ago, and Buttler should be made captain. Reading between the lines, Cook is retiring so he doesn't have to work with such a bunch of c0cks.

On the question of what they actually should do for the good of the team, though, I think Bairstow will probably be no more nor less successful with the bat wherever he bats, but that if he's keeping he should drop back down to 7 and give Buttler the chance to be a proper batsman. I don't think there's anyone on the planet who thinks that putting Moeen at 3 yields the best configuration; they're only doing it because he's willing, though given the team culture perhaps he's done a deal whereby he'll bat 3 if they always pick another spinner so he doesn't have to upset his own self-regard by thinking of himself as primarily a bowler. It's worth a try and I would expect him to do OK until next summer, but I suspect he's not got the all-round game to make it in a test-match top order long-term.

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Perhaps there is a worry about Leach's action being scrutinised by international umpires.
The problems regarding Leach's action were sorted out quite some time ago now. There is, however, a worry that despite this you will still post this same cretinous post whenever his name is mentioned in connection with the England team.
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Old 6th September 2018, 17:07   #29
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I get a chuckle out of “Cyderabad” or “Tauntittagong” myself.


Scrumpbai ?
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Old 6th September 2018, 17:38   #30
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Scrumpbai ?
Moeen Ali loves The Rose Bowl of Kashmir I believe!
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Old 6th September 2018, 17:57   #31
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So Bairstow chucks a strop and gets the gloves back. Except we know that if he bats at 5 he won't score runs.
It increasingly looks like there are 4 or 5 prima donnas in the test team who get what they want or behave like brats. Probably why Ali is so popular as when faced with a dressing room of egos he just fills in where ever and whenever. The irony was 8 years ago none of them would have got anywhere near the team as top 7 batsmen, with the exception of Root. If Pieterson was still playing the dressing room would be very interesting to say the least.

In 26 innings at 5 Bairstow averages 31. He still closes the face of the bat on anything straight and sometimes just outside off which does get him in to trouble. Logic would dictate if he wants the gloves and its been agreed to give them to him he bats below Buttler. There was a time when he was averaging well over 40 but over the last 18 months it dropped to the mid to high 30s. The last 2 calendar years its been under 32, which isn't so spectacular that he should be dictating terms to the manager.
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Old 6th September 2018, 18:26   #32
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It increasingly looks like there are 4 or 5 prima donnas in the test team who get what they want or behave like brats. Probably why Ali is so popular as when faced with a dressing room of egos he just fills in where ever and whenever. The irony was 8 years ago none of them would have got anywhere near the team as top 7 batsmen, with the exception of Root. If Pieterson was still playing the dressing room would be very interesting to say the least.

In 26 innings at 5 Bairstow averages 31. He still closes the face of the bat on anything straight and sometimes just outside off which does get him in to trouble. Logic would dictate if he wants the gloves and its been agreed to give them to him he bats below Buttler. There was a time when he was averaging well over 40 but over the last 18 months it dropped to the mid to high 30s. The last 2 calendar years its been under 32, which isn't so spectacular that he should be dictating terms to the manager.
Bairstow either moves into a higher position and stays in it but gives up the gloves, or stays put at 7, where he was very effective. Part of the problem is that once moved out of that slot, he doesn't have a fixed position but has played evenly between 5+6, and now recently tried at 4. The higher up he goes, the more the returns diminish.
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Old 6th September 2018, 18:34   #33
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It increasingly looks like there are 4 or 5 prima donnas in the test team who get what they want or behave like brats. Probably why Ali is so popular as when faced with a dressing room of egos he just fills in where ever and whenever. The irony was 8 years ago none of them would have got anywhere near the team as top 7 batsmen, with the exception of Root. If Pieterson was still playing the dressing room would be very interesting to say the least.

In 26 innings at 5 Bairstow averages 31. He still closes the face of the bat on anything straight and sometimes just outside off which does get him in to trouble. Logic would dictate if he wants the gloves and its been agreed to give them to him he bats below Buttler. There was a time when he was averaging well over 40 but over the last 18 months it dropped to the mid to high 30s. The last 2 calendar years its been under 32, which isn't so spectacular that he should be dictating terms to the manager.
Yes, I've noticed it does seem that Morgan is more of an authority figure with the ODI team than Root with the Test team. Morgan seems more capable of making the decision, however unpopular, if he thinks it's for the better of the team, whereas under Root it seems like the 'chosen' players largely get to choose their own roles, or Root quickly reverts to the safe option. It's the only reason why I think giving Root the entire Sri Lanka series off may just be a good idea if Buttler takes over as skipper and does a good job. A similar scenario to South Africa where De Villiers handed over to Du Plessis who then kept the job. Somehow in Buttler's few ODIs as captain he appears more suited to leadership than Root has to me.
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Old 6th September 2018, 21:30   #34
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In 26 innings at 5 Bairstow averages 31.
I utilised statsguru on cricinfo to break it down a bit:

#5 not as keeper

9 vs IND (Mumbai)
5 vs NZL (Lords)
5 vs AUS (Edgbaston)
74 vs AUS (Trent Bridge)
13 vs AUS (Oval)
26 vs AUS (Oval)
15 vs PAK (Abu Dhabi)
46 vs PAK (Dubai)
0 vs IND (Rose Bowl)

10 inns, 215 runs @ 21.50 (HS 74)

70 runs in 3 innings in India/UAE, 145 in the other 7 not too impressive but not a huge sample and not exactly against the worst sides

#5 as keeper

32 vs SRL (Lords)
89 vs IND (Mohali)
14 vs IND (Mumbai)
51 vs IND (Mumbai)
49 vs IND (Chennai)
1 vs IND (Chennai)
10 vs SAF (Lords)
51 vs SAF (Lords)
45 vs SAF (Trent Bridge)
16 vs SAF (Trent Bridge)
27 vs PAK (Lords)
0 vs PAK (Lords)
70 vs IND (Edgbaston)
28 vs IND (Edgbaston)
93 vs IND (Lords)
15 vs IND (Trent Bridge)

16 inns, 591 runs @ 36.93 (HS 36.93)

Granted it isn't the best record with, without or regardless of gloves (or not), but also what we're not factoring in is the lack of substance 1-4 these days, and ironic timing of the comments in the media and on here as he's played FIVE of those innings this series, made two important fifties and averaging 41.20 at #5 in the series!


I suspect he wasn't necessarily sulking or in a strop over losing the gloves, just knew with them he'd most likely drop off the radar in the insane top deck shuffle and be down at #6 or #7 where he's most comfortable.

#6 would appear to be his best position in the order, all his hundreds have come at 6-7 and he averages 41 in both positions.

Just a final observation, if we're trying to play stats win all, then his average of 37.33 at #8 oughtn't be ignored That's better than Ali (29.86) and as a technical all-rounder who can sniff at such a return?
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Old 6th September 2018, 21:47   #35
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I'm not sure we know that. Maybe we know that wherever he bats, people will use his batting position (rather than his actual batting) to explain why he isn't doing as well as they might like.

Many of the players are chucking strops about their batting position now. Root at 3 or 4 doesn't make much difference, he's still going to get between 40 and 60. When he moved from 4 to 3 earlier this season he said it was because now that he's been skipper for a while and settled into the role he's ready to take a bit more batting responsibility. By implication, his move back down to 4 is because he can't hack the responsibility after all. More likely anything he says to justify any move up or down is just lies: it looks like he wants to bat at 4 because he wants to, and Bayliss wants him to bat at 3 because he wants him to, and they're still playing silly buggers about it because that's what they do. Elsewhere I think Stokes gets to stay in his middle-order comfort zone because it was decided some time ago that neither the captain nor the coach dares ask him to move out of it. No strop necessary in his case, he can simply do it with his eyes and jaw. As for Bairstow, if he wants to be a senior player he'll have to strop about his role in the team like the other senior players do (including Broad and Anderson), otherwise he wouldn't really be able to call himself a senior player, would he? Buttler and Ali seem to be well-mannered and non-Yorkshire enough not to wave their willies around in such an obvious way, so they'll likely be the ones to facilitate the keeping of the peace between the big boys. It's a transparent shambles. Bayliss should have been sacked years ago, and Buttler should be made captain. Reading between the lines, Cook is retiring so he doesn't have to work with such a bunch of c0cks.

On the question of what they actually should do for the good of the team, though, I think Bairstow will probably be no more nor less successful with the bat wherever he bats, but that if he's keeping he should drop back down to 7 and give Buttler the chance to be a proper batsman. I don't think there's anyone on the planet who thinks that putting Moeen at 3 yields the best configuration; they're only doing it because he's willing, though given the team culture perhaps he's done a deal whereby he'll bat 3 if they always pick another spinner so he doesn't have to upset his own self-regard by thinking of himself as primarily a bowler. It's worth a try and I would expect him to do OK until next summer, but I suspect he's not got the all-round game to make it in a test-match top order long-term.

The problems regarding Leach's action were sorted out quite some time ago now. There is, however, a worry that despite this you will still post this same cretinous post whenever his name is mentioned in connection with the England team.
I like this post. In the first paragraph you quite rightly point out that people are speculating a lot about Bairstow. In the second you speculate a lot yourself, although I assume at least partly for comedy value. The third and fourth paragraphs are very solid analytically, although there remains some slim hope Ali could make a go of the top order and next to none of DL not being predictably tediously moronic.
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Old 6th September 2018, 21:49   #36
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If we want to analyse and decide where someone bats on the basis of his stats, Root at #4 might appear to be maybe third on the list of positions.

#4 : 45 inns, 2203 runs @ 52.45 (HS 190)

Might appear on face value to be great, but he has NINETEEN fifties and only FOUR hundreds batting #4, that's one hundred every 11 innings give or take compared to 8 in 28 innings (2 in 7) batting #5 where he averages over SEVENTY......

#5 : 28 inns, 1755 runs @ 73.13 (HS 200no)

The other case is for opener, limited innings there but given the two current incumbents aren't currently managing his average BETWEEN THEM, it makes a case for needs must

Opener : 11 inns, 417 runs @ 41.70 (HS 180)



There is of course the case to push him up not down made by the number of batsmen screaming to bat 5-7 and not so much 1-4, Ali and Bairstow two examples of batsmen/all-rounders you wouldn't want above #5.

I might also make a case for Stokes and his new found ability to grind and leave. Granted his average creeps up from 4-6 then drops at #7, 31.00, 31.20, 37.53 and 29.29 respectively 4-7, but 29no of the runs at #4 were pushing the rate up in India trying to put a winning target on the board (India left 172/6 chasing 310) so who knows how many he might have made there.

Yes that 31.00 average is made up of 2 innings, but I'm more suggesting it on the basis of his application in the past few innings, 62 off 187 balls, 23 off 79 balls and 30 off 110 balls, more application than some of the flimsier walking wickets show.


Would help if England weren't going into the final Test knowing one walking wicket is making his final walk, the other should have done so some games ago, and the opportunity to give Vince another go was passed up

Could Buttler bat higher up the order? Possibly, of his 40 innings in Tests he's faced 100+ balls in an innings NINE times, that's not bad and surprised me as it may well others.

On the flip side he's been out for single figures TEN times although again in some of those innings he faced quite a few balls - 0 off 22 balls, 9 off 38, 7 off 26, and indeed a 6no off 50 balls and 3no off 25 although those last two obviously he wasn't out, just thrown in to show he isn't just a run a ball merchant.
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Old 6th September 2018, 22:12   #37
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although there remains some slim hope Ali could make a go of the top order
England seem to pass up any opportunity to persist with him there or bat him in a sensible position to give it a proper go.

He's had 20 knocks batting in the top five, did well enough in India at #5, but England seem happier to hide him down in the low pressure slots of 7-8 and take his occasional performances with bat and/or ball

I tend to forget I have a pretty good file on him, not least as he hasn't played a lot of Tests recently, splitting his performances batting and bowling by where he bats in the order.

Moeen Ali

Batting 1-6 : 900 runs @ 26.47 & 58 wkts @ 39.64
Batting 7-9 : 1644 runs @ 36.53 & 84 wkts @ 38.64

He averages 40 with bat and ball at #7, one interesting stat perhaps oft overlooked is he does average 27.75 with the ball 2nd innings although that is balanced by his 4+ wicket efforts vs the rest

What is the disappointment with Moeen Ali is that in 51 Tests he has only scored 50+ runs and taken 3+ wickets EIGHT times, missed out by one run last Test but it's a fairly low bar to set and he's not clearing it very often - high bar if you want limbo instead of high jump.

He has scored 70+ runs in a Test 15 times, and taken 5+ wickets 9 times, 4 of those 9 Tests where he took 5+ wickets he also scored 70+ runs so that isn't terrible, a good+ performance 20 Tests out of 51 but then again given he has two bites at the cherry each Test, he has bowled under 90 balls in a Test only on five occasions so not like he's starved of bowling opportunity, that's not fantastic either.
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Old 6th September 2018, 22:43   #38
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I suspect he wasn't necessarily sulking or in a strop over losing the gloves, just knew with them he'd most likely drop off the radar in the insane top deck shuffle and be down at #6 or #7 where he's most comfortable.

#6 would appear to be his best position in the order, all his hundreds have come at 6-7 and he averages 41 in both positions.

Just a final observation, if we're trying to play stats win all, then his average of 37.33 at #8 oughtn't be ignored That's better than Ali (29.86) and as a technical all-rounder who can sniff at such a return?
Little confused over your first point above as to why you think he's sulking. I assume you feel he's sulking because he's not being allowed to bat at 6 or 7. This doesn't alter the fact he's clearly not been happy. Less than a week ago the management team stated Buttler was going to keep going forward, now Bairstow has the gloves back.

My point is that his record is way below someone like Collingwood who would have just got on with things no matter what. 2 years ago he looked like he was going to develop into something special. The fact he hasn't kicked on, is pretty indisputable. He is one of a number of players who appear to believe their own hype when the truth is their records with the bat are relatively average by international and England recent history standards. Cricket remains a team sport and that means you sometimes don't get to bat or field where you want. The point about Ali is that in a team which increasingly looks to have players dictating where they bat and field he is one who does just get on with it. It's not just the batting order we've had Stokes and Root deciding the don't like being in the slips. Whilst Bairstow remains one of our more likely run scorers his current record doesn't really give him sufficient credit to be dictating terms. When you've got an odd Prima Donna teams tend to get around it, at some point when there are too many something normally goes wrong.
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Old 7th September 2018, 09:00   #39
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I've said before that one of Bairstow/Buttler needs to make a go of batting top 5 (and specifically no.5). Given that Bairstow, and I think rightly is getting the gloves full time, then it is over to Buttler.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:40   #40
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It was pointed out by Nasser (such an under-rated analyst) that Bairstow seems to have opened up his stance this year. This is undoubtedly due to his white ball antics where he has been so successful. I think it will be interesting to see how certain batsmen do in the Test arena after next summer when the World Cup is no longer the priority (as it clearly is now).
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