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Old 11th October 2018, 14:45   #181
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Disagree. Oz were under massive pressure and only a few overs left before the close so resting the bowlers was a non argument.
I presume they wanted the pitch to deteriorate some more.

I think they made the right call. They gave themselves enough time to bowl Australia out (140 overs) but just weren't good enough to do so.

Had they made Australia bat again and Australia batted like they did then Pakistan would have been looking at a tricky chase of 120ish. Now think how that could have turned out if Pakistan had fallen to 45-3 like they did in their second innings. Enforcing the follow-on would have increased Australia's chance of winning, not Pakistan's.
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Old 11th October 2018, 14:46   #182
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Which Marsh Bros will get MoTM?
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Old 11th October 2018, 14:49   #183
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Khawaja's knock was the second longest 4th innings knock of all time (behind only Atherton). It was Australia's 3rd longest innings to draw a Test and also the 3rd longest in Asia.

I guess the pitch did win in the end, so Square Leg Umpire was ultimately correct.
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Old 11th October 2018, 14:59   #184
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Khawaja's knock was the second longest 4th innings knock of all time (behind only Atherton). It was Australia's 3rd longest innings to draw a Test and also the 3rd longest in Asia.

I guess the pitch did win in the end, so Square Leg Umpire was ultimately correct.
Wow. Was Athertons vs SA v Donald?
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:04   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
I presume they wanted the pitch to deteriorate some more.

I think they made the right call. They gave themselves enough time to bowl Australia out (140 overs) but just weren't good enough to do so.

Had they made Australia bat again and Australia batted like they did then Pakistan would have been looking at a tricky chase of 120ish. Now think how that could have turned out if Pakistan had fallen to 45-3 like they did in their second innings. Enforcing the follow-on would have increased Australia's chance of winning, not Pakistan's.
Oz batting 3rd on a better pitch against tired bowlers may have scored even more and batted longer.

Ifs
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:16   #186
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I presume they wanted the pitch to deteriorate some more.

I think they made the right call. They gave themselves enough time to bowl Australia out (140 overs) but just weren't good enough to do so.

Had they made Australia bat again and Australia batted like they did then Pakistan would have been looking at a tricky chase of 120ish. Now think how that could have turned out if Pakistan had fallen to 45-3 like they did in their second innings. Enforcing the follow-on would have increased Australia's chance of winning, not Pakistan's.
They didn’t give themselves enough time did they? If they had given themselves enough time then they would have won.

Sometimes the pitch can turn too much - maybe the edges would have been taken rather than beaten on third innings?

The fact is they ran out of time and didn’t win. So surely the wrong decision. How many times in history has a side followed on and won? I bet it is far lower than a side not enforcing the follow on and then running out of time.
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:25   #187
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They didn’t give themselves enough time did they? If they had given themselves enough time then they would have won.

Sometimes the pitch can turn too much - maybe the edges would have been taken rather than beaten on third innings?

The fact is they ran out of time and didn’t win. So surely the wrong decision. How many times in history has a side followed on and won? I bet it is far lower than a side not enforcing the follow on and then running out of time.
That's terrible logic that it must be the wrong decision because it didn't achieve the desired outcome. Sometimes the best decision still won't work out.
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:28   #188
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Wow. Was Athertons vs SA v Donald?
Can't remember much of the details, but I did watch the greater portion of Atherton's innings in the student bar, drinking 90p pints.
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:49   #189
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That's terrible logic that it must be the wrong decision because it didn't achieve the desired outcome. Sometimes the best decision still won't work out.
Do you disagree that you are more likely to win by enforcing the follow on? How many overs were bowled on day three evening?
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Old 11th October 2018, 15:55   #190
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I checked. A side has lost after enforcing the follow on once in each century of test cricket. You win almost 80% of the time.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:03   #191
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At the high level slightly more likely to draw when enforcing follow on. The problem is you would need to check all matches for weather as likely to be relevant.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:04   #192
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It his match feels more like England in Antigua in 09.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:08   #193
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That's terrible logic that it must be the wrong decision because it didn't achieve the desired outcome. Sometimes the best decision still won't work out.
This match might be comparable to Leeds 1948, when England set Australia a World Record 404, which they achieved with just 3 down....the right decision that in hindsight looks wrong because the spinners didn't do the business? In common with most of the cricketing world, I saw nothing of this match but I'm wondering if Yasir has lost a bit of his spark? There were certainly Kent fans questioning what was happening last season (a tad unfair, I know, over such a short space of time).
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:09   #194
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Do you disagree that you are more likely to win by enforcing the follow on? How many overs were bowled on day three evening?
Depends on whether the pitch was getting easier/harder to bat on. If it was flattening out then they made the wrong call. If it was breaking up then they made the right call.

The bigger issue here than the follow on is that couldn't bowl them out in 140 overs in the 4th innings.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:17   #195
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Depends on whether the pitch was getting easier/harder to bat on. If it was flattening out then they made the wrong call. If it was breaking up then they made the right call.

The bigger issue here than the follow on is that couldn't bowl them out in 140 overs in the 4th innings.
They could have batted 15-20 overs less , scored 50 less and still drawn.

Was an amazing effort by Oz - Pak can't be blamed for their approach - their decision to bat on a few more overs made a tiny % of a draw into a tiny % plus a tiny bit more.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:17   #196
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Depends on whether the pitch was getting easier/harder to bat on. If it was flattening out then they made the wrong call. If it was breaking up then they made the right call.

The bigger issue here than the follow on is that couldn't bowl them out in 140 overs in the 4th innings.
I'm not sure the pitch changed much at all over 5 days. There was one mad period in the Test where Australia somehow lost 10 wickets for 60 runs. The rest of it was largely similar.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:22   #197
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In general I'm in favour of enforcing the follow-on. But I wouldn't make it into a rule. From the dominant team's point of view, the range of relevant factors changes from instance to instance. In particular, if wicket-taking is expected (or even just hoped) to be significantly easier the closer one gets to the end of day five, then that would be a reason to get one's own second dig in sooner and delay the oppo's until later. But it's often quite a marginal decision one way or the other. In any case, one would expect the team that have been playing in the region for many years now to be better placed to make that decision properly that Sir Virgs is.

From an audience point of view, the game tends to go a bit flat during the third innings if the follow-on isn't enforced. But as in this game, what is lost in terms of tension in the third innings can sometimes be regained in the fourth.
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Old 11th October 2018, 16:48   #198
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For what it's worth, I wouldn't have enforced the follow-on either if I was in Sarfaraz's place.

The logic is solid- On the subcontinent, the reason you win the toss and bat first is mostly that you REALLY don't want to bat last on a crumbling track. Enforcing a follow on defeats that purpose. Unless one is very sure that the chances of batting again are none to negligible, he'd much rather bat again.
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Old 11th October 2018, 17:18   #199
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seems Pakistan batted too long. Once they got past a lead of 418 Australia would have had to have broken a record to win. With 8 down they probably wouldn't have needed much longer. Suppose with a few noted exceptions captains are extremely cautious.
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Old 12th October 2018, 03:45   #200
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seems Pakistan batted too long. Once they got past a lead of 418 Australia would have had to have broken a record to win. With 8 down they probably wouldn't have needed much longer. Suppose with a few noted exceptions captains are extremely cautious.
I'm not a fan of batting on for a few overs after an interval as you also lose 10mins with the changeover, in this instance Pakistan scored 26 runs in the 8 overs they batted so they weren't really scoring quickly either.

As you say captains are exceptionally cautious with regards to declaring.
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