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Old 26th November 2007, 11:50   #361
Michelle Fivefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by °Rey de España° View Post
It was, but I moved it over here a while back. I know FBU does a proper analysis on England players (which I'm sure everyone's grateful for, I know I am) but other fans do come across this and want to talk about their players rankings too. Better to have this thread for everyone on the international board, than possibly have two separate ones on different boards.
Good idea.
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:57   #362
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Test Rankings at 22 November 2007

Batsmen

6 (-) - Pietersen
16 (-) - Collingwood
17 (-) - Cook
21 (-1) - Bell
22 (-1) - Strauss
23 (+1) - Trescothick
25 (+1) - Vaughan
36 (-) - Flintoff
76 (-1) - Prior
80 (-1) - Jones
93 (-) - Shah
96 (-) - Read

Bowlers

10 (-1) - Hoggard
13 (-) - Flintoff
15 (-) - Panesar
23 (+1) - Harmison
33 (-) - Anderson
41 (+1) - Sidebottom
45 (+1) - Tremlett
55 (-) - Plunkett
57 (-) - Mahmood
74 (-)- Collingwood
82 (-1) - Lewis
85 (-1) - Vaughan
93 (-1) - Pietersen
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:11   #363
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Top 10 Batting 22 November 2007

1 (-) Ponting
2 (-) Kallis
3 (-) Sangakkara
4 (-) Yousuf
5 (-) Hussey
6 (-) Pietersen
7 (+1) Hayden
8 (-1) Khan
9 (-) Chanderpaul
10 (-) Clarke

Bowling

1 (-) Murali
2 (-) Ntini
3 (-) Steyn
4 (-) Clark
5 (+2) Kumble
6 (-1) Lee
7 (-1) Bond
8 (+2) Akhtar
9 (-1) Pollock
10 (-2) Hoggard
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Old 27th November 2007, 09:54   #364
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Kallis is just one point behind Ponting in the test rankings with WI touring SA next. I imagine Steyn and Ntini will help their own rankings in that series as well (althought they're still 100 points behind Murali).

It's a pity they've taken the predictor off the test nation rankings, I'd like to have seen the scenarios with India, SL, SA and England all playing in series soon and all within a few points of each other.
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Old 28th November 2007, 19:08   #365
Archimandrite Herring
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Originally Posted by 3hard View Post
But how’s this for a list, just picking a random date in mid 1980:
1 I.T. Botham
2 J. Garner
3 Kapil Dev
4 R.J. Hadlee
5 Imran Khan
6 R.G.D. Willis
7 A.M.E. Roberts
8 M.A. Holding
9 D.K. Lillee
10 C.E.H. Croft
FS's post on another thread reminded me that I was writing a reply to this when the board died. Here's the batting list, at about the same time (I've chosen 1st June 1980)

1 S.M. Gavaskar
2 I.V.A. Richards
3 A.R. Border
4 Javed Miandad
5 G.S. Chappell
6 G.P. Howarth
7 K.J. Hughes
8 C.G. Greenidge
9 I.T. Botham
10 A.I. Kallicharran

Notice that Botham is, impressively, on both lists. On balance I think I prefer the current crop of batsmen, but the important point is that this list is much worse than the crop of bowlers that were about at the same time.
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Old 28th November 2007, 22:21   #366
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I hope I'm not the only one who had to look up who Howarth was
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Old 29th November 2007, 00:24   #367
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Originally Posted by Archimandrite Herring View Post
FS's post on another thread reminded me that I was writing a reply to this when the board died. Here's the batting list, at about the same time (I've chosen 1st June 1980)

1 S.M. Gavaskar
2 I.V.A. Richards
3 A.R. Border
4 Javed Miandad
5 G.S. Chappell
6 G.P. Howarth
7 K.J. Hughes
8 C.G. Greenidge
9 I.T. Botham
10 A.I. Kallicharran

Notice that Botham is, impressively, on both lists. On balance I think I prefer the current crop of batsmen, but the important point is that this list is much worse than the crop of bowlers that were about at the same time.
Seeing the bowlers those guys were up against makes me increase my respect for their efforts somewhat. Would loved to see how some of them would have performed against a Murali or a Warne though.

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I hope I'm not the only one who had to look up who Howarth was
Hang your head Rey, Greatbatch would be most miffed. Or perhaps I'm just showing my age.
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Old 29th November 2007, 02:11   #368
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Seeing the bowlers those guys were up against makes me increase my respect for their efforts somewhat. Would loved to see how some of them would have performed against a Murali or a Warne though.
Well that's the question isn't it? It can hardly be coincidence that we have very few great bowlers at present and a glut of record breaking batsmen. I suspect it's mostly the tracks.

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Hang your head Rey, Greatbatch would be most miffed. Or perhaps I'm just showing my age.
I'm a good bit older than Rey and I only failed to look Howarth up out of laziness.
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Old 29th November 2007, 03:34   #369
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Even I can only vaguely recall Howarth. If I remember rightly he was the NZ captain in the early to mid 1980's. He was apparently a pretty good captain too by all accounts but he was a pretty ordinary batsmen from what I recall.

I am certainly surprised to see Howarth in the top ten of 1980 with the likes of Richards, Gavasker,Chappell etc., although maybe he was a better batsman early on in his career or had a purple patch around that particular time. I only really saw him bat at the very tail end of his career but he certainly didn't look top ten material then. In fact I think he was mainly picked for his captaincy skills towards the end of his career rather than for his batting.
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Old 29th November 2007, 04:02   #370
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For those of you who might be interested in finding out more about Geoff Howarth's career (probably nobody), here is his cricinfo profile;

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/ci/c...yer/37254.html

Interestingly he only had the decidedly average test average of 32.44, hardly top ten batting material. Although the article does mention that he was captain of the NZ team during their outstanding series win over the West Indies in 1980, which might explain his high rating at that time.
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Old 29th November 2007, 09:51   #371
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For those of you who might be interested in finding out more about Geoff Howarth's career (probably nobody), here is his cricinfo profile;

http://content-www.cricinfo.com/ci/c...yer/37254.html

Interestingly he only had the decidedly average test average of 32.44, hardly top ten batting material. Although the article does mention that he was captain of the NZ team during their outstanding series win over the West Indies in 1980, which might explain his high rating at that time.
sort of the Michael Vaughan of his age I suppose.
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Old 29th November 2007, 10:13   #372
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Don't worry, Rey, I had to look Howarth up too. I see that he got 147 in the second (drawn) test of the series Greatbatch mentions, against a decent attack of Roberts, Holding, Garner and Croft. Presumably this didn't hurt his rating.
Hadlee got a 92 ball century later on in the innings.

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This was the Croft/Goodall test. At tea on day 3, WI were so incensed by umpire Goodall that they refused to come out for session 3 until he was replaced. They emerged after a delay of 11 minutes, but removed all gear from the dressing room at the end of the day's play. The following day was a rest day but officials were fully occupied ensuring that the game continued. On the following day, Colin Croft 'again behaved abominably, needling umpire Goodall, petulantly knocking off the bails and eventually charging deliberately into the umpire. What made matters worse was that Mr Goodall then had to walk the length of the pitch to discuss matters with Lloyd, whose lack of action condoned this dismal performance taking place under his captaincy.'
What did Goodall do to annoy the Windies so much?
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Old 29th November 2007, 10:15   #373
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Originally Posted by Archimandrite Herring View Post
Don't worry, Rey, I had to look Howarth up too. I see that he got 147 in the second (drawn) test of the series Greatbatch mentions, against a decent attack of Roberts, Holding, Garner and Croft. Presumably this didn't hurt his rating.
Hadlee got a 92 ball century later on in the innings.



What did Goodall do to annoy the Windies so much?
lets just say, rumour has it that some of the decisions that said umpire made were very questionable by many accounts.
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Old 29th November 2007, 10:17   #374
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I remember Howarth quite well. That only means I'm showing my age.
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Old 29th November 2007, 11:23   #375
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sort of the Michael Vaughan of his age I suppose.
Yes quite possibly or even the Mike Brearley of his age (which was pretty much the same age as Brearley's age anyway), although Howarth was probably a slightly more useful batsman than Brearley was.
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Old 29th November 2007, 11:28   #376
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Yes quite possibly or even the Mike Brearley of his age (which was pretty much the same age as Brearley's age anyway), although Howarth was probably a slightly more useful batsman than Brearley was.
Brearley averaged low 20s so there was a considerable difference. Averaging 32 in the 70/s 80s for an opener was no disgrace, not outstanding by any means but OK, especially for NZ players who played their cricket, then as now on very grassy pitches.
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Old 29th November 2007, 11:51   #377
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lets just say, rumour has it that some of the decisions that said umpire made were very questionable by many accounts.
Well I guess that was back in the age of using home country umpires only, so I am assuming that Goodall was a local Kiwi umpire. Couldn't really blame him if he erred on NZ's side a bit when it came to making some decisions. After all I'm sure other country's umpires helped their own teams out in home test series back then. Hence the switch now to neutral umpires.

Not that I'm saying us Kiwis would ever cheat of course, I'm sure that series win against the Windies in 1980 was legitimate. After all the West Indies of that era were usually good enough to win against any opposition, anywhere, even if the umpires weren't on their side.

I was actually too young to remember that particular series myself but I still find it quite amazing that NZ were the only team to beat the West Indies in a test series, home or away, during their golden era of the late 1970's - early 1990's. I still think thats a pretty good achievement, with or without the help of Mr Goodall.
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Old 29th November 2007, 11:59   #378
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I'm going on hearsay rather than evidence myself though I do have a video of Hadlee's greatest moments (which I've not watched for years) that shows footage of the WI series.
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Old 29th November 2007, 12:12   #379
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Brearley averaged low 20s so there was a considerable difference. Averaging 32 in the 70/s 80s for an opener was no disgrace, not outstanding by any means but OK, especially for NZ players who played their cricket, then as now on very grassy pitches.
To be honest I don't actually remember seeing Brearley bat but I have seen a few of the replays, read books etc. which all point to the fact that he was mainly picked for his captaincy skills rather than as a batsman. However, like Howarth, he was probably still a better batsman than he is given credit for. Like you say, to average in the 20's/30's back in those days against fearsome bowling attacks like the West Indies on more favourable bowling tracks was probably pretty reasonable.

It would be interesting to see how the likes of Ponting, Kallis, Tendulkar or Pietersen would have fared against the West Indies attack of that era on a fast, bouncy, seaming track. I'm guessing their current test averages wouldn't be quite so impressive.
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Old 29th November 2007, 12:24   #380
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To be honest I don't actually remember seeing Brearley bat but I have seen a few of the replays, read books etc. which all point to the fact that he was mainly picked for his captaincy skills rather than as a batsman. However, like Howarth, he was probably still a better batsman than he is given credit for. Like you say, to average in the 20's/30's back in those days against fearsome bowling attacks like the West Indies on more favourable bowling tracks was probably pretty reasonable.

It would be interesting to see how the likes of Ponting, Kallis, Tendulkar or Pietersen would have fared against the West Indies attack of that era on a fast, bouncy, seaming track. I'm guessing their current test averages wouldn't be quite so impressive.
Brearley wouldn't get near a test team these days even with his captaincy, particularly in a team that if you get them 6 down you get them all out v quick. As for seeing how those guys would fare I suspect that would indeed be the case, but the batsmen that would really suffer though are the likes of Hayden and Smith who I think would have come a real cropper.
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