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Old 15th January 2018, 08:55   #121
Sir Coolerking
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Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
True, we've only won 5 world cups to Englands none, so what would we know about ODI cricket.
I think it was the report on Cricinfo which highlighted how teams have won World Cups. Australia won 3 and W indies 2 simply by having by far the best side in all formats. It's the other ones which are more interesting. Australia's first was done by revolutionising fielding and strike rotation. Pakistan decided that bowling teams out was their best chance, Sri Lanka attacked the opening overs like never before.

It's starting to look like the ability to score 350-400 will decide the next one (so long as the ICC don't insist on playing a semi final on a used pitch!!).
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Old 15th January 2018, 09:20   #122
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Your sarcasm obscures the fact that he bowled well.
Morgan certainly has him set in the role of getting through the middle overs and bowl out by over 35 or so.

Due to early wickets falling, Oz didn't fancy taking any chances against him and it worked in England's favour.
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Old 15th January 2018, 09:26   #123
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Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
True, we've only won 5 world cups to Englands none, so what would we know about ODI cricket.
Keep living in the past and you'll not win more. Some teams have an approach that has move beyond yours.

You can't accuse the English of harking back constantly if you are going to do it yourself. The next World Cup will be more akin to last season's Champions Trophy. As you are only as good as your last outing / tournament, remind us how you got on?

I'm not for one moment suggesting that England will win it, but for now we have a more open and successful approach than Australia does. Aaron Finch is a great example of someone England looked at and needed to join or emulate: in a few years we have done so.
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Old 15th January 2018, 09:30   #124
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I still don't fancy our bowling that much. There are going to be times that England will lose games with the ball due to lack of a cutting edge. Our batting is great when it comes off but is too prone to collapsing too often. Yes, fast starts are the norm for this side but also there are fast wickets. Two down for not very many and if Roy had had one of his all too frequent brain farts then it might have been a different story. A good start though.
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Old 15th January 2018, 09:55   #125
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Is Aaron Finch “cricket-fit”? He looks to be carrying a lot of timber.
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Old 15th January 2018, 10:50   #126
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I still don't fancy our bowling that much. There are going to be times that England will lose games with the ball due to lack of a cutting edge. Our batting is great when it comes off but is too prone to collapsing too often. Yes, fast starts are the norm for this side but also there are fast wickets. Two down for not very many and if Roy had had one of his all too frequent brain farts then it might have been a different story. A good start though.
Our bowling is full of average bowlers with no cutting edge, if the pitches are very batting friendly which most are these days it doesn't matter so much as even the best bowlers struggle.

On the other side our batting lineup is so good in large part due to all of our bowlers being useful ODI batsman, losing a couple of early wickets isn't a big problem for us generally as we have plenty of strength down the order, Mark wood is probably an exception there when on form anyway in that he does look penetrating and isn't actually much cop with the bat in limited overs.

We will struggle more on used/poor pitches when bowlers are actually in the game and our bowlers struggle to get wickets compared to the opposition, at the end of the day though it's just limited overs cricket and it's so much more fun to watch England now than it was 3 years ago.
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Old 15th January 2018, 11:01   #127
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True, we've only won 5 world cups to Englands none, so what would we know about ODI cricket.
Yes and that is great. I hold Australia to be the best cricketing nation BUT that has nothing to do with what I stated, which is the CURRENTLY, Australia do not know what their best side is, what their best available selections should be and how they should go about it.

We're talking about the here and now, now what happened 3 years ago. I am sorry if that offends you and you are unable to have an honest cricketing discussion because of it but England are a superior ODI side now.
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Old 15th January 2018, 11:02   #128
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Is Aaron Finch “cricket-fit”? He looks to be carrying a lot of timber.
I honestly feel batsmen can get away with those types of physiques if they can hit the ball hard and score runs. Finch is Australia's second best ODI batsman, so I don't think his look should be an issue.
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Old 15th January 2018, 13:14   #129
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I can't believe some of my fellow England fans are giving the Aussie posters crap on here because we won one ODI. MRNC isn't harking back to the last. Australia are CURRENT world champions. For all our ability to smash 400+ totals, we haven't won any ODI tournament, including a failure to do so just 7 months ago when we were hosts and clear favourites. Winning these matches or even series is all very nice, but meaningless in the long run.
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Old 15th January 2018, 16:11   #130
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KP is up there in the top few I would say, along with Root, Trescothick, Knight, Lamb, Morgan and Gooch.

However KP averaged 41 in his career. Root averages 51 and has already scored more hundreds.

I’d forgotten how successful a player Jonathan Trott was. Higher average that Root. Problem for him will be that he played in a team who got their tactics so wrong and had a disastrous world cup.
@analytics_jonas has a good measure for ODI cricket, Runs Above Average which values how many runs a batsman or bowler is worth above average, when factoring in their scoring rate and how likely they are to be dismissed.

Buttler 116
Trescothick 114
KP 112
Trott 111
Bairstow 111
Root 110
Flintoff 109

Some others: Morgan 105, Roy 100, Hales 100.

Suspect Roy will be up a bit after that knock.
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Old 15th January 2018, 16:41   #131
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
@analytics_jonas has a good measure for ODI cricket, Runs Above Average which values how many runs a batsman or bowler is worth above average, when factoring in their scoring rate and how likely they are to be dismissed.

Buttler 116
Trescothick 114
KP 112
Trott 111
Bairstow 111
Root 110
Flintoff 109

Some others: Morgan 105, Roy 100, Hales 100.

Suspect Roy will be up a bit after that knock.
You could open up some old wounds with that - the only reason he's so high is because everyone was getting out at the other end trying to make up for his slow scoring rate!!
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Old 15th January 2018, 16:45   #132
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You could open up some old wounds with that - the only reason he's so high is because everyone was getting out at the other end trying to make up for his slow scoring rate!!
Ha, he's obviously the odd name out here.
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Old 15th January 2018, 18:17   #133
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I can't believe some of my fellow England fans are giving the Aussie posters crap on here because we won one ODI.
We've beaten them 4 time out of the last 5 ODIs.
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Old 15th January 2018, 20:47   #134
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"After Roy departed", the game was already won. Neasden Ladies Second XI could have got us home from there.
Possibly, but England is probably unequaled in our ability to lose from overwhelmingly won positions...
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Old 15th January 2018, 21:09   #135
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Your sarcasm obscures the fact that he bowled well.
'twas intended to be tongue in cheek, but I can understand how it could come across as predominantly sarcasm.

Strangely enough, I see Ali as a much more plausible fit for the ODI side than the test side. He's rarely outrageously expensive with the ball, and unlike Tests, not taking many wickets isn't so significant. Plus 20-40 runs at a high strike rate becomes a valuable contribution, although he does have a few too many sub-ten scores for my liking.
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Old 15th January 2018, 23:38   #136
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I can't believe some of my fellow England fans are giving the Aussie posters crap on here because we won one ODI. MRNC isn't harking back to the last. Australia are CURRENT world champions. For all our ability to smash 400+ totals, we haven't won any ODI tournament, including a failure to do so just 7 months ago when we were hosts and clear favourites. Winning these matches or even series is all very nice, but meaningless in the long run.
England have been a better ODI side since the end of that WC when compared to Australia. It is as simple as that and the last match was not the first time this has been brought up. The Aussie media and former players/journos etc have been talking about their confusion. No one even knows what their best side is, who should and should not play in the middle order etc.

England on the other hand were easily, and I mean, without competition, the best ODI side in the CT until they came upon a rampant Pakistan, and let's be honest, whether it be tests, ODIs or T20s, when Pakistan find that form, no one beats them. That is not unusual.

Obviously there are improvements that need to be made, England cant just rely on scoring big and need high quality bowlers but more often than not, their bating has trumped everyone else. We can't just act like Eng didnt emphatically thump South "number one ranked side" Africa before the CT.

You have to go back almost 2 years to find England losing a bilateral series. In fact, they have only lost 1 in 17 matches.

Aus can't boast anywhere near that level of success. They were on their way to a loss against NZ but rain helped them with a point, they probably would have beaten Bang but rain got them a point, and then soundly beaten by England. Before that, they were beaten pretty comfortably by India.

So, to state England are in a better position with their ODI side and strategy is just the truth. There's no "giving crap" going on here.
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Old 16th January 2018, 08:55   #137
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England on the other hand were easily, and I mean, without competition, the best ODI side in the CT until they came upon a rampant Pakistan, and let's be honest, whether it be tests, ODIs or T20s, when Pakistan find that form, no one beats them. That is not unusual.
Pakistan were helped massively by having played on that pitch 3 days earlier. On a fresh pitch (and I still have no idea why there wasn't one available for a semi final) there was only going to be one winner.

Steve Smith was fairly honest in his assessment that England have a far better batting plan than Australia at the moment. He even suggested that he should play the Root role and having others bat aggressively around him.
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Old 16th January 2018, 10:37   #138
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I'd suggest from the usual England model of playing 4 seamers and 2 spinners,

Stokes Ali Woakes Rashid Plunkett Wood
Maxwell Stonis Faulkner Coulter-Nile Starc Lyon
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Old 16th January 2018, 11:05   #139
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I'm not a big fan of the 5 day gap between ODIs.
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Old 16th January 2018, 11:40   #140
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Originally Posted by billyguntheballs View Post
England have been a better ODI side since the end of that WC when compared to Australia. It is as simple as that and the last match was not the first time this has been brought up. The Aussie media and former players/journos etc have been talking about their confusion. No one even knows what their best side is, who should and should not play in the middle order etc.

England on the other hand were easily, and I mean, without competition, the best ODI side in the CT until they came upon a rampant Pakistan, and let's be honest, whether it be tests, ODIs or T20s, when Pakistan find that form, no one beats them. That is not unusual.

Obviously there are improvements that need to be made, England cant just rely on scoring big and need high quality bowlers but more often than not, their bating has trumped everyone else. We can't just act like Eng didnt emphatically thump South "number one ranked side" Africa before the CT.

You have to go back almost 2 years to find England losing a bilateral series. In fact, they have only lost 1 in 17 matches.

Aus can't boast anywhere near that level of success. They were on their way to a loss against NZ but rain helped them with a point, they probably would have beaten Bang but rain got them a point, and then soundly beaten by England. Before that, they were beaten pretty comfortably by India.

So, to state England are in a better position with their ODI side and strategy is just the truth. There's no "giving crap" going on here.
And yet despite all that, Australia are world champs, Pakistan are the trophy champs and England have nothing. They may be in a better place than Australia right now, but it's not the type of bragging rights I care too much about. As Pakistan showed, sides can pull together quite quickly in limited over tournaments.
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