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Old 14th June 2016, 16:05   #281
CDogg16
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Is there anyone better than Compton ?

I can't see any other batsmen out there better. Lets stick with him - yes he isn't scoring runs but he once got a few runs a couple of years ago even if his average is DIRE recently.
Good point. Compton has underperformed and will be dropped. He has one of the best records in County Cricket but someone with a worse record than him will be given a go, because Compton has underperformed. I have no qualms with playing Ali as an all rounder but there are better spin bowlers than him in CC.
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Old 14th June 2016, 17:14   #282
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Is there anyone better than Compton ?

I can't see any other batsmen out there better. Lets stick with him - yes he isn't scoring runs but he once got a few runs a couple of years ago even if his average is DIRE recently.
You could only fail to see better batsmen than Compton by screwing your eyes tight shut. In any case, as I agree that there probably are better spinners than Moeen around, that wasn't really the point I was making, which was more that it's pretty absurd to make a case in favour of someone else by saying that we have to try them to have any idea. There are lots of ways of having an idea as to whether they'd be any good or not. Trying someone is what you do once you've identified them as having useful potential to improve the side.
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Old 14th June 2016, 17:15   #283
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Good point. Compton has underperformed and will be dropped. He has one of the best records in County Cricket but someone with a worse record than him will be given a go, because Compton has underperformed. I have no qualms with playing Ali as an all rounder but there are better spin bowlers than him in CC.
He really doesn't, especially not this season.
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Old 14th June 2016, 17:33   #284
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Moeen 49 overs 180/2 @ 90, 3.67 economy.

Surely we have someone who could do better than that ?
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Who? ...
I think there are many such someones around, as even Moeen's champions are now beginning to admit.

I think in the short term the team can be improved without any change in personnel, by Cook not asking Moeen to bowl, or by Moeen just refusing to bowl when asked (which I think he could probably get away with for quite a while, on account of his beard). Then the overs that he's currently bowling to very little avail would be bowled by a better bowler. One possible pleasant side-effect might be Cook getting suspended for a slow over-rate, but experience rather suggests that that's the kind of low-down and dirty trick that the ICC would be rather loath to indulge in, especially when Cook's from the right kind of family and all.
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Old 14th June 2016, 17:40   #285
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And is a CBE, Sans, don't forget.

On the serious point, I'm approaching thinking that Moeen should be picked as a batsman, his bowling be regarded as a part time option of a fair amount more use than Root's and the attack should be reconsidered if the track suggests we really do need a specialist spinner. The problem is that I still think that leaves us playing the same side almost the whole time outside sub continental tours because it's so easy to get four good seamers in and still have good batting, so why pick an at best speculative spinner to bowl the few overs that Moeen bowls plus perhaps a few more if he's genuinely an upgrade (which is far from certain)? In fact, it's entirely possible that explicitly or implicitly that's how the selectors are approaching it.
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Old 14th June 2016, 17:53   #286
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He really doesn't, especially not this season.
Not this season, but over his career he has a better record than most of the candidates to replace him.
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Old 14th June 2016, 21:30   #287
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Good point. Compton has underperformed and will be dropped. He has one of the best records in County Cricket but someone with a worse record than him will be given a go, because Compton has underperformed. I have no qualms with playing Ali as an all rounder but there are better spin bowlers than him in CC.
This is a dubious claim.

The other thing about Compton is that this is the fourth season in a row that his fc average has been lower than the season before.

Who are the better spin bowlers than Moeen in CC?
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Old 14th June 2016, 21:47   #288
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This is a dubious claim.

The other thing about Compton is that this is the fourth season in a row that his fc average has been lower than the season before.

Who are the better spin bowlers than Moeen in CC?
I would say that Batty and Tredwell are definitely better than Ali. People like Rayner, Kerrigan, Leach, Ansari and Patel are probably in a par with Ali. I'd stick with Moeen to be honest.
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Old 14th June 2016, 22:25   #289
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I would say that Batty and Tredwell are definitely better than Ali. People like Rayner, Kerrigan, Leach, Ansari and Patel are probably in a par with Ali. I'd stick with Moeen to be honest.
Kerrigan is a better bowler than Ali, although is obviously far worse bat. I would say Patel is a better bowler as well.
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Old 14th June 2016, 22:57   #290
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Cosker's a better bowler than Ali, though he's not good enough for the Glamorgan CC 1st XI.
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Old 15th June 2016, 08:29   #291
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Just for clarification. Are we pretending that our spin bowler doesn't need to bat anymore? Was it moeen's 150* that convinced you of that?

As I have said all along - none of those specialist spinners are significantly better with him with the ball to justify the lack of runs. Fat Sam is the only one I currently see as comparable. As I said on a different thread. Moeen hardly bowled this summer vs Sri Lanka apart from where him and herath got all but identical figures in Durham.
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Old 15th June 2016, 10:41   #292
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Moeen has a better bowling average against India than Shane warne so he might. ...
We had an admission of misreading statistics the other day. Will we ever get one of misusing them?
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Old 15th June 2016, 14:21   #293
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Just for clarification. Are we pretending that our spin bowler doesn't need to bat anymore? Was it moeen's 150* that convinced you of that?
If our spin bowler was good enough then his batting would be not be a significant issue.
I actually like Ali and believe he contributes to a team (who if they beat Pakistan) will I think hold every "test series trophy".
BUT in India we have Rashid who IMO had a good start to his test career, but possibly bowls too slowly? Ali and........
Batty is potentially a decent short term solution, but...
Treadwell is just a depressing idea, two seasons ago he was dropped by his County.
Fat Sam is (excuse the bad pun) Ali light
Raynor - I have not seen much of him play and he does not have exceptional CC figures - but he is tall, will get bounce AND (dredging my faulty memory) has taken bag fulls on bunsens. Strangely if India prepare turning wickets a quick tall accurate spinner who doesn't give it a massive tweak but extracts bounce might be a handful?
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Old 15th June 2016, 17:51   #294
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Batty was terrible in tests when he was good...

Ansari's glass thumbs couldn't have come at a worse time for him and England. I like the look of Crane but think he's a while off. He looks like he has a decent action and bowls a little quicker than Rashid, but likewise his googly is a little telegraphed.

Bizarrely, the answer to this conundrum may depend on how well, if selected, Scott Borthwick does as a batsman.
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Old 15th June 2016, 17:52   #295
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Jack leach is the obvious pick.
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Old 15th June 2016, 21:01   #296
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Jack leach is the obvious pick.
I wonder what Sir Virgs would make of this suggestion. i think he would think you were mad.
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Old 16th June 2016, 07:19   #297
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Batty was terrible in tests when he was good...

Ansari's glass thumbs couldn't have come at a worse time for him and England. I like the look of Crane but think he's a while off. He looks like he has a decent action and bowls a little quicker than Rashid, but likewise his googly is a little telegraphed.

Bizarrely, the answer to this conundrum may depend on how well, if selected, Scott Borthwick does as a batsman.
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Jack leach is the obvious pick.
I agree about the Borthwick part, if he comes in (very highly likely) and holds his place as a batsman I think its more likely they will go for a containing type spinner and ideally a left armer in India. I can't see England wanting 3 spinners of a similar type. Hopefully Bairstow is working his socks off on his keeping standing up. Ali's pretty awful average of 90 against Sri Lanka would have been an ok 40 if dropped catches and stumpings had been taken and I can't see our spinners doing that well in India unless every chance is taken.

Guessing 2 players will go as specialist spinners, Leach seems a player on the up. Raynor is making a decent claim and playing at Lords will help. Ansari needs a strong end to the season if he's over his injuries. My guess is one of these 3 plus Rashid, who showed enough in UAe to be worth another shot but not really enough to deserve a definite test place. Leach and Raynor both have good economy rates this year (Ansari hasn't played enough to really have any form) and I'd hope they learn't last winter you need a spinner who can slow down the game at times on sub-continent type pitches. My big hope is that they actually pick one spinner because they believe he is the best in the country, rather than because of the batting. I can see the logic of considering batting as part of the package for most series but I think India is a bit different, so I think we could carry a genuine number 11. Anderson wouldn't be the worst number 10 of all time.
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:58   #298
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Joking aside. If we play on the same pitches that India used against the saffers then raynor is a good shout.

Moeen will surely be one of them so who is the other? The beauty of woakes and stokes is that we could have two spin and four seam options.
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Old 16th June 2016, 09:40   #299
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Joking aside. If we play on the same pitches that India used against the saffers then raynor is a good shout.

Moeen will surely be one of them so who is the other? The beauty of woakes and stokes is that we could have two spin and four seam options.
Would be a seamer too many over there in the sense that there is likely to be one wouldn't get to bowl that many overs unless you have a potentially up and down pitch.
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Old 16th June 2016, 14:04   #300
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Joking aside. If we play on the same pitches that India used against the saffers then raynor is a good shout.

Moeen will surely be one of them so who is the other? The beauty of woakes and stokes is that we could have two spin and four seam options.
1. Cook
2. Hales
3. Borthwick
4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Ali
8. Ansari/Patel
9. Foakes
10. Broad
11. Anderson

This is something like what I think they'll go for in India. The selectors will see Ali and Borthwick as two attacking spinners who could potentially go for a lot of runs, but could take wickets because they'll turn the ball. Therefore, I think they'll want a defensive spinner (ideally left arm as then you have the full set of wrist spin, off spin, left arm spin). They could surprise us and move a specialist keeper up to 8, bat Broad at 9 and then pick a proper spinner (Kerrigan, Leach or Rayner) at 10. I also don't think we'll need a 4th seamer in Woakes for those conditions. We know the type of pitches that'll be prepared. It backfired on them last time because Monty and Swann were probably the two best spinners in the world. This time they'll only have to face pretty average spin where as we'll have to face Ashwin and Jadeja with the new ball.
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