Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > International Cricket
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 5th January 2018, 12:54   #241
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
I would like to point out, I only originally named it "the pretty little fifties thread" and didn't add the "IR Bell" part to it. Although Bell was undoubtedly deserving of much of the criticism that came his way for not converting enough, in my opinion he has now been outstripped by Root. Indeed it was of the markedly increasing trend a year ago that I decided to start the thread. Although Bell was a hugely frustrating player to watch, Root has a greater all round batting game. IMO Root would be a genuine great of the game if he had converted even another half dozen or so of the number of 50s he's scored, yet it becomes inevitable on him reaching 50 that he is going to get out soon afterwards.
I agree and so does he. I caught a bit of his innings yesterday after he had just passed 50. You could see the demons playing in his head. Funny old game.

I'm not sure I'd rank him before Kohli in tests. I'd actually be more confident of him scoring runs against any bowling on any wicket than Virat, although that has a lot to do with Kohli not having played many recent tests outside India so limited information to judge on.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2018, 13:12   #242
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking View Post
I hear you.....And yet the irony is, Root had some stat at the start of his career whereby he had more MOTM awards per match than anyone else. That sure ain't holding up anymore.
What are the ratios for the current England team I wonder? Is this easy to get from anywhere?
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2018, 14:50   #243
cg3
County Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I'm not sure I'd rank him before Kohli in tests. I'd actually be more confident of him scoring runs against any bowling on any wicket than Virat, although that has a lot to do with Kohli not having played many recent tests outside India so limited information to judge on.
I agree. Root has no real weakness against spin or pace, and in fact can dominate any type of bowling (which is probably, pardon the pun, the root cause of his struggles - he has so many shots that he'll have to actively rein himself to start pushing onto bigger scores).

Kohli is deeply flawed outside off-stump on seaming/swinging pitches - hell, even against high quality quick bowlers on flat pitches. That aspect of that game has scarcely improved since his horrors in England 4 years ago. Pretty much everything else about his game (and fitness) is miles better since. But against the best fast bowling I think he will always be second rate.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2018, 14:56   #244
cg3
County Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
Root is a class below Kohli. Being a good test batsman is about being able to convert your 50s into match defining innings of substance, which Kohli does regularly, and Root hardly at all anymore.
I disagree. Its an element of being a great batsman, but not the only one. Kohli for example is not good enough to get to 50 on a lot of difficult pitches - whereas Root is. Root shouldn't be punished for that.

Like I said in my post, if you just look at conversion rates than you'd think Michael Vaughan was an all-time great, when really he was an average player who had a couple of glorious years.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th January 2018, 15:53   #245
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
I agree. Root has no real weakness against spin or pace, and in fact can dominate any type of bowling (which is probably, pardon the pun, the root cause of his struggles - he has so many shots that he'll have to actively rein himself to start pushing onto bigger scores).
.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2018, 00:23   #246
square leg umpire
Legendary
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: yorkshire
Team(s): yorkshire
Posts: 8,807
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
I agree. Root has no real weakness against spin or pace, and in fact can dominate any type of bowling (which is probably, pardon the pun, the root cause of his struggles - he has so many shots that he'll have to actively rein himself to start pushing onto bigger scores).

Someone said he feels as if he as a need to entertain and show off his shots so he gets out. Smith and Kohli don't worry about that and just think about going big.
square leg umpire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2018, 14:19   #247
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,828
It would be apt if Root ended up stranded closing in on a century through rain or running out of partners.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2018, 16:23   #248
1000yardstare
Posting Goddess
 
1000yardstare's Avatar
JA 852 Cummins 156 Wagner 152 TCurran 27 SCurran 16
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,227
Root should have been playing like he has, in this innings, for quite a while. Looking at the bowlers, the pitch, what the ball is doing and playing himself in rather than every ball must go. I think a Test innings ebbs and flows and England players need to read the game better. Bairstow, new ball, nearing stumps, comes to the crease. Pumped up, ready to go .... back to the dressing room. Stoneman opening the innings 24 from 24 balls.

I have a feeling that the rest of the Australian team have taken Smith's lead lately and all of them, even Warner, establishing a foundation on which to build their innings, however long that takes. Maybe Root has also watched Smith (for hours on end) but I feel he will revert back to form once this innings has finished. That's the way I play he will say.

England coaches will say to the team play your natural game. Australian bowlers will know they won't have to wait long.

The only one who plays the right way is Malan.
1000yardstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th January 2018, 18:52   #249
cg3
County Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
Someone said he feels as if he as a need to entertain and show off his shots so he gets out. Smith and Kohli don't worry about that and just think about going big.
I'll give you that Kohli is absolutely ruthless when set - six double centuries in two years is evidence of that. But he is simply not in the same class as Root. Root gives you the confidence that he can dominate - not just score - any attack in any conditions. Kohli isn't that good and given that he'll be 30 this year, unlikely he ever will be.

Smith is a better man for Root to try and emulate - he probably won't get there given that only Bradman has in Test history, but he should be the standard that Root aspires to.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 00:30   #250
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 42,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Root is a class behind Kohli but being able to convert 50s is a rubbish definition of being a good test batsman.

Would you rather someone who converted every time they passed 50 but only passed 50 one in twenty innings or would you rather someone who passed 50 every innings but only converted every fifth time they passed 50?
Itís not the defining factor of being a good test bstsman but itís an important factor. We have seen Smith go on to big scores when set and put his team into a commanding position with the bat. are you seriously arguing that itís not important for top 6 batsmen to build on old starts and make them pay? This is not something Iíve noticed you arguing in the past. Rootís poor conversion rate has become a focus of attention for the pundits and for once they are all in agreemen. It wouldnít matter so much if other batsmen had been making big scores, but they havenít - just the one exceptional innings by Cook. Root is our best batsman but he hasnít led the way on this tour.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 00:39   #251
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 42,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
Someone said he feels as if he as a need to entertain and show off his shots so he gets out. Smith and Kohli don't worry about that and just think about going big.
I havenít actually heard that but there may be something in it. What I have said earlier is that he likes to keep the innings moving and keep rotating the strike. This is an admirable intention, although heís been known in the past to run partners out who werenít as quick off the mark as him. He has been greatly praised for this intent not to get bogged down and I wonder if this has entered his thinking to the extent that he plays more shots than necessary when a better course would be to exercise a bit of caution.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 06:13   #252
MRNC4.0
International Cricketer
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Melbourne
Team(s): Victoria
Posts: 2,051
Well at least this one was a gritty little 50.
MRNC4.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 09:02   #253
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,476
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRNC4.0 View Post
Well at least this one was a gritty little 50.
5 series 50s. This means he moves to 37 50s, now being only 9 behind Bell after his 65th test. This means that also he now has 13 tons in 65 matches, a ratio of exactly 1 to 5. In this day and age the very best players tend to be far close to 1 in 4 and better.

Does anyone know what the record is for a five test series for the most number of them by an individual batsman?
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 09:10   #254
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,850
As far as I can see only Cook's innings made any difference to anything in this series. We lost every match except the one in which Cook scored runs, which we drew. The results would have been the same if Root had got zero every time. That's how useful his pretty little 50s are.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 10:15   #255
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 24,476
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
As far as I can see only Cook's innings made any difference to anything in this series. We lost every match except the one in which Cook scored runs, which we drew. The results would have been the same if Root had got zero every time. That's how useful his pretty little 50s are.
This is true, but Cook was pretty pathetic in much of the rest of the series with no other score being above 40. That is at least part of the reason why we lost 4-0.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 14:57   #256
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
This is true, but Cook was pretty pathetic in much of the rest of the series with no other score being above 40. That is at least part of the reason why we lost 4-0.
It's too convenient to say that centuries win matches - the game down at Cape Town clearly disproves it - but to score big totals, you will need individuals to score centuries. This England team seems incapable of doing so on a regular basis. Yes, Root's conversion rate is poor, but so are those of Bairstow, Woakes, Ali, Stokes and now Malan. A lot of the other batsmen we've tried in various positions have also routinely failed to make 100, eg Hales and Stoneman, despite passing 50 regularly enough.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 18:30   #257
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 28,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
Itís not the defining factor of being a good test bstsman but itís an important factor. We have seen Smith go on to big scores when set and put his team into a commanding position with the bat. are you seriously arguing that itís not important for top 6 batsmen to build on old starts and make them pay? This is not something Iíve noticed you arguing in the past. Rootís poor conversion rate has become a focus of attention for the pundits and for once they are all in agreemen. It wouldnít matter so much if other batsmen had been making big scores, but they havenít - just the one exceptional innings by Cook. Root is our best batsman but he hasnít led the way on this tour.
Which is better?

Batsman A 150, 0, 0, 0.
Batsman B 150, 50, 50, 50

Batsman A has a 100% conversion rate
Batsman B has a 25% conversion rate


ps Root led the averages (and then immediately retired hurt before they could sack him), so technically he did lead the way....
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2018, 20:01   #258
cg3
County Pro
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Batsman A 150, 0, 0, 0.
Batsman B 150, 50, 50, 50

Batsman A has a 100% conversion rate
Batsman B has a 25% conversion rate
In a way this sums up the Kohli & Root comparison. In 18 innings in SA & England, Kohli has reached fifty twice. Converted one of those to a hundred - 50% conversion rate.

On the other hand in 9 innings in this series Root has reached 50 five times but not converted to a hundred single time. 0% conversion rate.

Quite obvious who the better player is here despite a conversion rate lower by 50%.

Yes it would be great if Root could be like Steve Smith and both score fifties and convert a lot of them to hundreds regularly but given that only one person in history has been a more successful batsman than Smith, that might be expecting just a little too much from Root, even if he is exquisitely gifted.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 03:00   #259
thedon
County Pro
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 986
It's nice to discuss averages and stats but one of the defining things about great batsmen is the ability to go on and get big scores from a start, putting their team in good positions. A glut of half centuries rarely does this. To this extent, Cook had more impact on the recent Ashes series than did Root despite only reaching one half century. As rubbish and disgraceful as the pitch was, without him England still would have been whitewashed 5-0.

I think one of the problems is that Captaincy is affecting Root mentally. Some thrive on it, others don't.
__________________
carpe diem quam minimum credula postero
thedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th January 2018, 03:20   #260
thedon
County Pro
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 986
It looks like Root has a bit of a problem going on with it against good fast bowling also, compared to Kohli and Williamson. Certainly a comparatively poor record in Aus, which relies mostly on pace attacks. 16 innings, 6 x 50's no centuries and a 38 ave. with a couple of not outs bumping that up. A bit of a weakness.
__________________
carpe diem quam minimum credula postero
thedon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 17:46.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org