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Old 10th July 2017, 11:37   #401
luckyluke
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Some really good players but several duffers
A bit
Wait and see
No
I'm not
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Old 10th July 2017, 11:58   #402
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* Is anyone buying 5th day tickets for the upcoming test at Lords vs The West Indies ?
Not possible. Lord's isn't selling advance Day 5 tickets for that match, nor for this last Test.
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Old 10th July 2017, 12:59   #403
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A few questions raised by this result

* How good/bad are South Africa ? Spoiler - their fielding is rank.

*
South Africa are a decent side suffering because of the weakness of their economy/Rand which IMO is more a driving factor than quotas in losing players.
Somebody with more knowledge than me could probably put together a team of South African's playing in England that would rival the present one - with very little thought Nick Compton and Wayne Madsen would improve the batting.
Tom & Ben Curran are SA....
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Old 10th July 2017, 13:13   #404
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1st Lords win for England v Saffers since 1960.
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Old 10th July 2017, 13:59   #405
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Pretty poor batting lineup and poor fielding neither of which are helped with the players injured. Their bowling lineup is still good.

Not really in that it's nothing new and no batsman we bring in seem to be good enough at 2/3/4.

See above.

Probably but it was more that it looked a day older than it was every day apart from the first rather than it being unsuitable from the start.

Not me but then I don't buy 5th day tickets beforehand anyway. I certainly won't be going to the MCC vs Afghanistan game at Lords tomorrow as that's being played on the test pitch apparently, I think Rashid Khan could have a rather good time of it if he plays!
Some grounds don't sell 5th day tickets regardless of the opposition. Probably too much trouble having to deal with all the refunds.
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Old 10th July 2017, 14:04   #406
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1st Lords win for England v Saffers since 1960.
Also nice to see England win a summer test in London after a bit of a lean stretch.
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Old 10th July 2017, 14:26   #407
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... Not sure what your comment about punters not getting moneysworth if there were a 100 overs a day means ...
Just a comment on ticket prices.

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Today Dawson has bowled pretty well. It's just been ... well Moeen's day.
I was lucky enough to see the Amla wicket in the pub. Amazing scenes.

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Very uncharacteristic wicket for Lord's wasn't it? Rarely are spinners such a factor in tests at Headquarters.
It made a nice change.

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It took an awfully long time for Warne and Hussein to wake up to the fact Root was being ultra conservative with his field placings on what was, a raging bunsen with an unsurpassable lead. At one point Dawson was ragging it square and the fact Root didn't have any one or more of a gully, second slip, silly point and silly mid off in place defied belief. Which doesn't augur well if England have anything less than a 100% stonewall winning chance in any future matches.
Root will learn. It's fair enough to start out cautious. I was glad to see that Root stuck with the spinners (rather than e.g. trying to give wickets to Wood), and from what he said on TMS after the match, he values having 2 spinners in the team. I hope this continues, as given the benefit of so many fine all-rounders I think it is the most obvious way to add a dimension to our team.

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... They still think he is about 12.
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He does look and sound like he's 12 tbf
I think he was 12 when he made his test debut in December 2012 ... Which would make him 16 or 17 now. Golden future that lad.
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Old 10th July 2017, 16:33   #408
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My point about Lords 5th day is that if the Windies lose the toss and field it wont go past the 4th day.

Rabada getting the ban was harsh.
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Old 10th July 2017, 16:34   #409
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TMS has 4th inning scores at Lords in recent years - nothing over 250 from memory.
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Old 10th July 2017, 16:36   #410
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Arrow Re Lord's taking spin

As Sans mentioned, it was indeed a nice change for Lord's to take spin as it did. Of course, I had airbrushed Yasir Shah's performance from the picture, but Lord's wickets lasting about 7 or 8 days has been all too common and negated England's usual strengths of seam and swing bowling.

No wonder England captains have usually not known what to do with a spinner unless they could be relied on like Swann, which then becomes self-reinforcing - the spinner plays a bit part when the bat is on top so bowling averages suffer and the spinner gets dropped (like Rashid did).

Last edited by stevieh : 10th July 2017 at 18:41.
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Old 10th July 2017, 18:21   #411
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As Sans mentioned, it was indeed a nice change for Lord's to take spin as it did. Of course, I had airbrushed Yasir Shah's performance from the picture, but Lord's wickets lasting about 7 of 8 days has been all too common and negated England's usual strengths of seam and swing bowling.

No wonder England captains have usually not known what to do with a spinner unless they could be relied on like Swann, which then becomes self-reinforcing - the spinner plays a bit part when the bat is on top so bowling averages suffer and the spinner gets dropped (like Rashid did).
About 10 years ago Lord's wickets used to be strips of concrete with about as much chance of deteriorating with age as Cleopatra. There have been results almost every time more recently though, albeit that could have a bit to do with the disparity in quality between England's test bowling and batting. I thought this was an excellent test wicket. I like watching a progression through a game with different skills rewarded as time goes on. The danger with worn wickets is that it's unfair to the side that loses the toss but actually, the ball did a fair bit for the SA quicks early on and if they'd held their chances and not bowled no balls, they'd potentially have been in a position to dominate the match so I don't think there's even really much complaint there.

Agree with what DL said about the wicket offering a lot of help to spinners and I'm not going to get over excited about Ali's match efforts here turning him into a top class bowler, especially as he had chances on wickets that offered spinners something in India and had a bad tour there. Nonetheless, this was hugely encouraging from him.
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Old 10th July 2017, 21:19   #412
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Really this result sums up the current state of South African cricket, in that there's just a real lack of enthusiasm surrounding the whole thing. It's not beyond the realms that this series could go the way of a whitewash. Faf is a good leader and does seem to bring about a more galvanised unit but he's got an almighty job on his hands
to breath new life into a side who look like their already gasping for this tour to end.

People will talk about the drain of talent but you look at how poorly Rossouw has been at Hampshire and how van zyl has hardly set division two on fire and it becomes clear that in many ways that's more is being made of that than it perhaps should. Selection wise it's difficult to see where South Africa turn the balance was clearly wrong particularly when your picking a half fit Philander, but then the balance hasn't been there since Kallis. Faf should without question replace Duminy but whether that happens is another issue altogether. Kuhn shouldn't have got the gig over Makram, yes its the more risky move but bringing in a 30 something smacks of over conservatism and as we saw with Cook has little long term reward - even though I'd rate Kuhn a far better player than Cook. There's so many holes in the batting though, put it this was there's very guys in there id back to score 100s with any regularity. The bowling is ok and in a way I'm happy for Rabada to miss a Test - he's getting so over bowled - but it's difficult to see them ever having the runs to play with.

The problems though are much wider than personnel, in that there is a real lack of interest in both first-class and more importantly Test cricket within South Africa which almost reflects the lethargic performance we saw this weekend
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Old 10th July 2017, 22:03   #413
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Am not going to get carried away, the 2nd innings showed we still have a soft underbelly esp when the ball is turning and are still prone to the classic England batting collapses.

Saffers will be hurting and will pull out all the stops to beat us at TB, with Faf back they'll have strong leadership now (plus he's an excellent batsman) and might not fold so easily.

Having said that we need to make sure we don't get complacent and take out foot off the gas, the Pak series still haunts me, going into the final test all the momentum was with us having taken a 2-1 lead only for us to capitulate at The Oval. Yes I'm well aware there's still 3 more tests to go, but what i'm saying is going into TB just like in the Pak series we're leading and all the momentum is with us, let's not **** it up.
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Old 11th July 2017, 03:31   #414
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That was the first 10 wicket haul at Lord's for an England spinner since Derek Underwood in1974. I'll leave it to the reader to provide the details and the opposition on that occasion.
Was that the one where they had members of the public mopping up on the outfield for him. Deadly wasn't really a spinner, he bowled medium pace off-cutters and made his own rough by pitching the ball on the same 6 square inches every ball. First Lords dust bowl I've ever seen and I can remember the likes of Edmonds, Embury, Tufnell, Swann, Panesar bowling on that square. Shane Warne or Murali would approve.

Would it be underhand to prepare a TB green-top for next Friday? I should be one that zips about a bit. Especially without Rabada.
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Old 11th July 2017, 04:13   #415
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South Africa are a decent side suffering because of the weakness of their economy/Rand which IMO is more a driving factor than quotas in losing players.
Somebody with more knowledge than me could probably put together a team of South African's playing in England that would rival the present one - with very little thought Nick Compton and Wayne Madsen would improve the batting.
Tom & Ben Curran are SA....
Whilst I agree with most of what you say, SA is wealthier than the WIndies or NZ. Bangladesh. SA should stop whinging and whining. Nick Compton?? Wayne Madsen? Swap you both of them for lucky Phil and Chris Morris.The Currans are ours. We got dibs on them and well ....I can only say better than the Hollioakes at that stage.
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Old 11th July 2017, 04:59   #416
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Am not going to get carried away, the 2nd innings showed we still have a soft underbelly esp when the ball is turning and are still prone to the classic England batting collapses.

Saffers will be hurting and will pull out all the stops to beat us at TB, with Faf back they'll have strong leadership now (plus he's an excellent batsman) and might not fold so easily.

Having said that we need to make sure we don't get complacent and take out foot off the gas, the Pak series still haunts me, going into the final test all the momentum was with us having taken a 2-1 lead only for us to capitulate at The Oval. Yes I'm well aware there's still 3 more tests to go, but what i'm saying is going into TB just like in the Pak series we're leading and all the momentum is with us, let's not **** it up.
Excuse me sir! It is a Royal Prerogative for the England cricket team to **** it up. It is traditional for us to lose 4-6 wickets in a morning session. It would be unsporting of us to crush the Saffers into the ground when they are having such a hard time. We must take into consideration that de Vill is taking a bit of time off, Faff's missis has had a baby, Steyn has a poorly shoulder and Rabada is an idiot child born from a US TV chat show host and a Channel 4 weather girl.
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Old 11th July 2017, 08:15   #417
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Was that the one where they had members of the public mopping up on the outfield for him. Deadly wasn't really a spinner, he bowled medium pace off-cutters and made his own rough by pitching the ball on the same 6 square inches every ball. First Lords dust bowl I've ever seen and I can remember the likes of Edmonds, Embury, Tufnell, Swann, Panesar bowling on that square. Shane Warne or Murali would approve.

No, the public mop up was at The Oval in 1968 - when England got the win to draw the Ashes series and Dolly made a ton that would start the ball rolling to South Africa's eventual exclusion.

The 1974 Lord's Test in question was against Pakistan, when rain seeped under the covers
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Old 11th July 2017, 08:48   #418
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Really this result sums up the current state of South African cricket, in that there's just a real lack of enthusiasm surrounding the whole thing. It's not beyond the realms that this series could go the way of a whitewash. Faf is a good leader and does seem to bring about a more galvanised unit but he's got an almighty job on his hands
to breath new life into a side who look like their already gasping for this tour to end.

People will talk about the drain of talent but you look at how poorly Rossouw has been at Hampshire and how van zyl has hardly set division two on fire and it becomes clear that in many ways that's more is being made of that than it perhaps should. Selection wise it's difficult to see where South Africa turn the balance was clearly wrong particularly when your picking a half fit Philander, but then the balance hasn't been there since Kallis. Faf should without question replace Duminy but whether that happens is another issue altogether. Kuhn shouldn't have got the gig over Makram, yes its the more risky move but bringing in a 30 something smacks of over conservatism and as we saw with Cook has little long term reward - even though I'd rate Kuhn a far better player than Cook. There's so many holes in the batting though, put it this was there's very guys in there id back to score 100s with any regularity. The bowling is ok and in a way I'm happy for Rabada to miss a Test - he's getting so over bowled - but it's difficult to see them ever having the runs to play with.

The problems though are much wider than personnel, in that there is a real lack of interest in both first-class and more importantly Test cricket within South Africa which almost reflects the lethargic performance we saw this weekend
Hi Maty, I did wonder about the batting stocks in particular, especially with ABDV seeminlgy given up test cricket as a bad job and with Faf away for this series. The bowling should still be reasonably competitive but as you say there are too many folk who are either not good enough or not ready. I see some folk singing the praises of Markaram, do you know that much about his likely value?
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Old 11th July 2017, 09:21   #419
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Whilst I agree with most of what you say, SA is wealthier than the WIndies or NZ.
GDP per capita according to the OECD in NZ is $38,833, in RSA it's $13,229. Overall GDP is higher in RSA as their population is massively bigger, but per capita NZ is much wealthier.

That's probably one of the reasons why we've had a reasonable influx of South Africans over the last decade, including a number of South African cricketers.
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Old 11th July 2017, 10:32   #420
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Hi Maty, I did wonder about the batting stocks in particular, especially with ABDV seeminlgy given up test cricket as a bad job and with Faf away for this series. The bowling should still be reasonably competitive but as you say there are too many folk who are either not good enough or not ready. I see some folk singing the praises of Markaram, do you know that much about his likely value?
He's here now. He was just missing one test for the birth of his first child.
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