Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4th October 2018, 14:57   #1281
Sir Coolerking
International Material
 
Sir Coolerking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Berks
Team(s): England, Sussex, Portsmouth
Posts: 1,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post

Ali's all rounder status and quite high variance with the ball (or arguably, good performances at home versus generally poor away) do mean his MotM awards viewed on their own rather overstate his merits, as he's a bit of a double shot at them but then the counter argument is that he's contributing significantly in two respects.
What was interesting from his 6 MOTM Awards was that 4 of them were quite clearly down to his bowling, 1 to his batting and 1 to all round skills - and only the last one was remotely questionable where no one produced a feat of individual brilliance.
Sir Coolerking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 15:01   #1282
Sir Coolerking
International Material
 
Sir Coolerking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Berks
Team(s): England, Sussex, Portsmouth
Posts: 1,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post

If someone has won it, they've had a good match. But if they haven't won it it doesn't mean they've had a bad match. It's not a reliable indicator for if they played the decisive role in winning a match (a MoM is still awarded in drawn matches, or occasionally to someone on the losing side), it's even unreliable in saying it was the best performance in the match - polls on here for MotM were rarely unanimous.
I actually think the MOTM award is most reliable in drawn matches. For some reason, it is nearly always given to the winning side, and whilst 95% of the time the best player probably was on that team there is still that occasional match where the best innings or bowling was in a losing vain. But in drawn matches, there is no winner issue so it nearly always goes to the right player.
Sir Coolerking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 15:31   #1283
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
2015/16 it was Ben Stokes

2017 was shared by Ali and Morne Morkel. So a half.
A lot of series, including The South Africa series, the sponsors award a MoS to a player from each side. It's not really a half because it's preplanned before the series there will be one from each side.
JRC67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 15:38   #1284
AJ101
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
A lot of series, including The South Africa series, the sponsors award a MoS to a player from each side. It's not really a half because it's preplanned before the series there will be one from each side.
Isn't it general practice for the opposition coach to name the player of the series from the other team? I thought this always happened these days (not that I pay much attention to it).
AJ101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 16:09   #1285
JRC67
International Material
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ101 View Post
Isn't it general practice for the opposition coach to name the player of the series from the other team? I thought this always happened these days (not that I pay much attention to it).
Generally it's the sponsors who put up the prize so it depends on what they want.
JRC67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 20:18   #1286
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Coolerking View Post
I actually think the MOTM award is most reliable in drawn matches. For some reason, it is nearly always given to the winning side, and whilst 95% of the time the best player probably was on that team there is still that occasional match where the best innings or bowling was in a losing vain. But in drawn matches, there is no winner issue so it nearly always goes to the right player.
But as soon as you say best player the metric is problematic. We haven't got a method of knowing best player. It's up for grabs what this would be. The game is set up as a method of knowing best team, and there's 11 in each team, so if the best team wins, there are 11 best players. We say May the Best Team Win as a kind of agreement about what's supposed to be going on in this strange cricket ritual. The contexts in which one might say May the Best Man Win are different ones (e.g. boxing or chess). It can't even accurately be said of a bowler against a batsman (or vice versa) because then it is not really one against one but two at once against eleven.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 21:07   #1287
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,373
I'm sure some Google bod could create a dodgy algorithm that determines MotM each game, and leave it at that.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th October 2018, 21:47   #1288
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 9,164
I'm not sure many folks on here will remember the 1984 Benson & Hedges Cup Final between Lancs & Warks. Under the captaincy of John Abrahams, the Red Rose carried the day comfortably by 6 wickets. Abrahams himself was out third ball for a duck, didn't bowl, held one catch and turfed another easier one. But - bizarrely - Gold Award adjudicator Peter May declared him man of the match. JA looked somewhat bewildered when moving forward to accept his gong. One reason for May's decision may have been that Abrahams had won the toss and inserted Warks...another that it was his birthday. A bit rough on Paul Allott who'd bowled superbly to return figures of 8.4-0-15-3, and Alvin Kallicharran, who made just over half of Warks' total of 139.

Thank heavens Peter May wasn't involved in any really important cricketing decisions around that time. Oh...hold on....
Summer of '77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2018, 22:37   #1289
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 42
Posts: 43,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
2015/16 it was Ben Stokes

2017 was shared by Ali and Morne Morkel. So a half.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRC67 View Post
A lot of series, including The South Africa series, the sponsors award a MoS to a player from each side. It's not really a half because it's preplanned before the series there will be one from each side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ101 View Post
Isn't it general practice for the opposition coach to name the player of the series from the other team? I thought this always happened these days (not that I pay much attention to it).
Certainly this happened as far back as the 2005 Ashes, where Flintoff and Warne got awards. There was an overall MotS for that series but mostly (or entirely) there isn’t now. So as usual, Jock is beating Ali with a stick that turns out not to be a stick.

So77, I think you’ve told us that one already. I suppose it’s possible I’ve come across it from another source instead but I think it was you.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 14:02   #1290
Jock McTuffnel v3
World Class
 
Jock McTuffnel v3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cambridge
Team(s): England
Posts: 6,873
Last player from a losing side to win a test MoTM award ?
__________________
Jock McTuffnel v3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 19:20   #1291
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 42
Posts: 43,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Last player from a losing side to win a test MoTM award ?
Itís not a common phenomenon. Ali didnít get it for his excellent unbeaten ton that almost saved a certain defeat against SL.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2018, 20:55   #1292
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 19,373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
It’s not a common phenomenon. Ali didn’t get it for his excellent unbeaten ton that almost saved a certain defeat against SL.
Yes, I'm wondering if Moeeb's failure to record a MotM in a losing cause is another stick which Jock can beat him with.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2018, 16:28   #1293
Jock McTuffnel v3
World Class
 
Jock McTuffnel v3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cambridge
Team(s): England
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Itís not a common phenomenon. Ali didnít get it for his excellent unbeaten ton that almost saved a certain defeat against SL.
I found some examples in ODI cricket

https://sportzwiki.com/cricket/list-...defeated-team/

Some cracking scores/bowling figures overlooked here

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/conte...74.html#table5

No sign of a MOTM award to a losing side though..
__________________
Jock McTuffnel v3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2018, 16:34   #1294
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,732
The second link is a bit old, but nonetheless I would be interested to hear Sir Virgs's comments on whether or not Alex Tudor was a better England player than Moeen Ali ...
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2018, 23:04   #1295
Jock McTuffnel v3
World Class
 
Jock McTuffnel v3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cambridge
Team(s): England
Posts: 6,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
The second link is a bit old, but nonetheless I would be interested to hear Sir Virgs's comments on whether or not Alex Tudor was a better England player than Moeen Ali ...
Dilley certainly was and he is on one of those lists.

6x5 fers in just 40 tests,138 wickets and a sub 30 average. Yet not a single Motm...

Played with Botham mind you...
__________________
Jock McTuffnel v3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2018, 06:44   #1296
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 9,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Dilley certainly was and he is on one of those lists.

6x5 fers in just 40 tests,138 wickets and a sub 30 average. Yet not a single Motm...

Played with Botham mind you...
Playing throughout one of England's leanest periods wouldn't have helped either. Of Dilley's 41 Test matches, only 2 were won by England.
Summer of '77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2018, 08:12   #1297
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanskritsimon View Post
The second link is a bit old, but nonetheless I would be interested to hear Sir Virgs's comments on whether or not Alex Tudor was a better England player than Moeen Ali ...
Low base size klaxon! Obviously not.

How good was Kallis? Wow.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2018, 08:22   #1298
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 21,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Dilley certainly was and he is on one of those lists.

6x5 fers in just 40 tests,138 wickets and a sub 30 average. Yet not a single Motm...

Played with Botham mind you...
I love that you have now started to compare the England spinner in a five man attack to an opening bowler. Do spinning all rounders often get their number of five fers and averages compared to opening bowlers?

Dilleyís best was when he got 9 wickets in a test at lordís vs the windes. Our spinner bowled 21 overs in the match and got one wicket. It was the only wicket to spin in the match.

He didnít get man of the match because gus logie got 80 odd out of 200 first innings and then unbeaten 95.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2018, 08:38   #1299
Summer of '77
Legendary
 
Summer of '77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London-Essex
Team(s): Kent, Essex, Surrey Stars
Posts: 9,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Dilleyís best was when he got 9 wickets in a test at lordís vs the windes. Our spinner bowled 21 overs in the match and got one wicket. It was the only wicket to spin in the match.

He didnít get man of the match because gus logie got 80 odd out of 200 first innings and then unbeaten 95.
Even without Logie, there was also the small matter of Marshall's 10 for 92, dropping his pace slightly to cut the ball both ways.
Summer of '77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2018, 12:02   #1300
sanskritsimon
Posting God
 
sanskritsimon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Team(s): Arkholme Bees, Hackney Grasshoppers, Holy Cross Academicals
Posts: 10,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
Low base size klaxon! Obviously not. ...
The small sample size in Tudor's case is because he was dropped for not being good enough, though, wasn't it? Interesting that that could happen despite his having won MoM in 2 of his 10 tests. Or put another way, if frequency of MoM awards were a reliable indicator of player quality, one would expect the leaders in the "Least [should read "Fewest"] test matches per MoM award" chart to be players who were good enough to have long careers. Pietersen is an example of this: at this stage of his career he had 2 MoMs in 14 tests, and he went on to have a rather successful test career. But Tudor is not the only player in this chart (cf. also Tuffey above him) who won MoM in a high proportion of the tests they played but nonetheless weren't picked to play many tests. Presumably high MoM frequency is compatible with being pants quite a bit of the rest of the time, and selectors may prefer a more consistent player with a lower ceiling, if available.
sanskritsimon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:38.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© Cricket247.org