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Old 12th January 2018, 12:58   #921
1000yardstare
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From 2000 Test debutants by the years

2000 - Schofield, Hoggard, Trescothick
2001 - Sidebottom, Ward, Afzaal, Ormond, Dawson, Foster
2002 - SJones, Harmison, Key
2003 - Anderson, McGrath, Johnson, Smith, Kirtley, Ali, Batty, Clarke, Saggers, Collingwood
2004 - GJones, Strauss, Bell
2005 - Pietersen, Udal, Plunkett
2006 - Blackwell, Cook, Panesar, Shah, Mahmood, Lewis

2007 - Prior, Tremlett, Bopara, Broad
2008 - Ambrose, Pattinson, Swann

2009 - Khan, Bresnan, Onions, Trott
2010 - Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad
2011
2012 - Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root
2013 - Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes,
2014 - Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin,
Ali, Jordan, Robson, Buttler
2015 - Lyth, Wood,
Rashid, Hales
2016 - Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson

2017 - Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran
2018 - Crane, Leach

Fletcher Moores Flower, Bayliss

Last edited by 1000yardstare : 30th March 2018 at 07:16.
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Old 12th January 2018, 17:01   #922
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Originally Posted by 1000yardstare View Post
From 2000 Test debutants by the years

2000 - Schofield, Hoggard, Trescothick
2001 - Sidebottom, Ward, Afzaal, Ormond, Dawson, Foster
2002 - SJones, Harmison, Key
2003 - Anderson, McGrath, Johnson, Smith, Kirtley, Ali, Batty, Clarke, Saggers, Collingwood
2004 - GJones, Strauss, Bell
2005 - Pietersen, Udal, Plunkett
2006 - Blackwell, Cook, Panesar, Shah, Mahmood, Lewis

2007 - Prior, Tremlett, Bopara, Broad
2008 - Ambrose, Pattinson, Swann

2009 - Khan, Bresnan, Onions, Trott
2010 - Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad
2011
2012 - Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root
2013 - Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes,
2014 - Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin,
Ali, Jordan, Robson, Buttler
2015 - Lyth, Wood,
Rashid, Hales
2016 - Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson

2017 - Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran
2018 - Crane

Fletcher Moores Flower, Bayliss
when you see something like this, it really underlines Anderson's remarkable Test career.
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Old 12th January 2018, 17:48   #923
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Originally Posted by 1000yardstare View Post
From 2000 Test debutants by the years

2000 - Schofield, Hoggard, Trescothick
2001 - Sidebottom, Ward, Afzaal, Ormond, Dawson, Foster
2002 - SJones, Harmison, Key
2003 - Anderson, McGrath, Johnson, Smith, Kirtley, Ali, Batty, Clarke, Saggers, Collingwood
2004 - GJones, Strauss, Bell
2005 - Pietersen, Udal, Plunkett
2006 - Blackwell, Cook, Panesar, Shah, Mahmood, Lewis

2007 - Prior, Tremlett, Bopara, Broad
2008 - Ambrose, Pattinson, Swann

2009 - Khan, Bresnan, Onions, Trott
2010 - Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad
2011
2012 - Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root
2013 - Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes,
2014 - Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin,
Ali, Jordan, Robson, Buttler
2015 - Lyth, Wood,
Rashid, Hales
2016 - Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson

2017 - Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran
2018 - Crane

Fletcher Moores Flower, Bayliss
It may be more revealing to colour code them by chairman of selectors.

Ignoring the suspended Stokes (who'd already been picked in ODIs and T20s two years earlier), does that make Moeen Ali the biggest success story of the James Whitaker era?

Would love to hear what Jock makes of that.
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Old 13th January 2018, 08:28   #924
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It may be more revealing to colour code them by chairman of selectors.

Ignoring the suspended Stokes (who'd already been picked in ODIs and T20s two years earlier), does that make Moeen Ali the biggest success story of the James Whitaker era?

Would love to hear what Jock makes of that.
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Old 13th January 2018, 11:11   #925
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It may be more revealing to colour code them by chairman of selectors.
Graveney: up to Broad (97 to Jan 08)
Whitaker: Stokes onward (Oct 13 onward)
Miller: in between (Jan 08 to Oct 13)

I think
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Old 13th January 2018, 11:49   #926
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Graveney: up to Broad (97 to Jan 08)
Whitaker: Stokes onward (Oct 13 onward)
Miller: in between (Jan 08 to Oct 13)

I think
Anyone else in bold for Tests?

Graveney
2000 - Schofield, Hoggard, Trescothick
2001 - Sidebottom, Ward, Afzaal, Ormond, Dawson, Foster
2002 - SJones, Harmison, Key
2003 - Anderson, McGrath, Johnson, Smith, Kirtley, Ali, Batty, Clarke, Saggers, Collingwood
2004 - GJones, Strauss, Bell
2005 - Pietersen, Udal, Plunkett
2006 - Blackwell, Cook, Panesar, Shah, Mahmood, Lewis
2007 - Prior, Tremlett, Bopara, Broad

Miller
2008 - Ambrose, Pattinson, Swann
2009 - Khan, Bresnan, Onions, Trott
2010 - Carberry, Finn, Tredwell, Morgan, Shahzad
2011
2012 - Patel, Bairstow, Taylor, Compton, Root
2013 - Kerrigan, Woakes, Stokes

Whitaker
2014 - Ballance, Borthwick, Rankin, Ali, Jordan, Robson, Buttler
2015 - Lyth, Wood, Rashid, Hales
2016 - Vince, Ball, Duckett, Ansari, Hameed, Jennings, Dawson
2017 - Malan, Roland-Jones, Westley, Stoneman, Overton, Curran
2018 - Crane
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Old 16th March 2018, 14:40   #927
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Spin since Swann retired

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...s;type=bowling

Who will make their debut first Leach or Livingstone?

Would they consider Livingstone if Vince gets single figures and Livingstone makes a 100? No.

Leach will arrive too late to be considered for the 1st Test.
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Old 16th March 2018, 16:40   #928
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Depressing that only Tredwell, from 2 tests, and Borthwick (from 1) have better bowling averages than Moeen in that time. What a dearth.
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Old 16th March 2018, 18:29   #929
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Depressing that only Tredwell, from 2 tests, and Borthwick (from 1) have better bowling averages than Moeen in that time. What a dearth.
Only Dawson has played a Test in England from what I remember. I'm hoping Leach gets a run in the team if he is considered the best finger spinner around.
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Old 16th March 2018, 20:24   #930
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Only Dawson has played a Test in England from what I remember. I'm hoping Leach gets a run in the team if he is considered the best finger spinner around.
I'm hoping the sky will open and Jesus step down to earth. I don't see how Leach getting a run in the team can possibly happen unless Moeen resigns. They're not going to play Moeen as a batsman, and there won't be room for two spinners amongst the bowlers. Ali Martin in today's Guardian says that this two-test series vs New Zealand is "not expected to demand a second spinner alongside Moeen Ali", which says it all really: Moeen Ali is nailed on as the first spinner regardless of the ability of the competition, and the competition will only be allowed a look-in if we're playing on a pitch which all English commentators will abominate. Leach doesn't stand a chance of playing until next winter, and then he will immediately be dropped again unless he's about a million times better than Moeen, and Moeen also fails completely with the bat, and the sky opens and Jesus steps down to earth.
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Old 17th March 2018, 09:50   #931
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Depressing that only Tredwell, from 2 tests, and Borthwick (from 1) have better bowling averages than Moeen in that time. What a dearth.
Or is it just a return to 'normality'? I seem to remember before Swann, England were relying on bowlers like:

Giles - Test average: 40 (54 Tests)
Emburey - Test average 83 (64 Tests)
Miller - Test average 31 (34 Tests, but only 60 wickets)
Edmonds - Test average 34 (51 Tests) - or even
Salisbury - Test average 77 (15 Tests)



Other under-performing spinners are available!
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:26   #932
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Or is it just a return to 'normality'? I seem to remember before Swann, England were relying on bowlers like:

Giles - Test average: 40 (54 Tests)
Emburey - Test average 83 (64 Tests)
Miller - Test average 31 (34 Tests, but only 60 wickets)
Edmonds - Test average 34 (51 Tests) - or even
Salisbury - Test average 77 (15 Tests)



Other under-performing spinners are available!
We had Underwood, then we had Swann. Ok, the likes of Edmonds, Monty and Panesar had their moments but we've only produced two spin bowlers who've averaged under 30 in 50 years. And no batsmen over 50 (excluding current). And no bowlers period under 25.
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:40   #933
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We had Underwood, then we had Swann. Ok, the likes of Edmonds, Monty and Panesar had their moments but we've only produced two spin bowlers who've averaged under 30 in 50 years. And no batsmen over 50 (excluding current). And no bowlers period under 25.


Yes indeed - the point I was making.

Rather than berating the failure of Moeen or Rashid to be another Swann, we should realise it may be the 2030s before another spinner of that quality comes along!
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Old 17th March 2018, 12:29   #934
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Yes indeed - the point I was making.

Rather than berating the failure of Moeen or Rashid to be another Swann, we should realise it may be the 2030s before another spinner of that quality comes along!
I think it will be a little sooner as there are 4 or 5 promising candidates. The danger will be pushing someone through too quickly as to really make it they have to have a game for all conditions. For the most part they currently only play in the right conditions, so their statistics are a bit misleading. Monty probably suffered from that a little as he never really learnt how to bowl in different conditions. Spin bowling is probably the most difficult skill to master at the top level because there is normally only one in the team and a spinner really needs to be able to radically change how they bowl depending on conditions.
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Old 17th March 2018, 13:20   #935
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I think it will be a little sooner as there are 4 or 5 promising candidates. The danger will be pushing someone through too quickly as to really make it they have to have a game for all conditions. For the most part they currently only play in the right conditions, so their statistics are a bit misleading. Monty probably suffered from that a little as he never really learnt how to bowl in different conditions. Spin bowling is probably the most difficult skill to master at the top level because there is normally only one in the team and a spinner really needs to be able to radically change how they bowl depending on conditions.


Well, I hope you're right.

But I remember when Ian Salisbury was the bowler tipped to be the next great spinner!
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Old 17th March 2018, 14:27   #936
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Emburey - Test average 83 (64 Tests)
You werenít a fan then? But donít exaggerate quite how bad he was!
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Old 17th March 2018, 15:14   #937
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You werenít a fan then? But donít exaggerate quite how bad he was!
He was a typical English spinner - like Giles, Miller or Moeen perhaps - able to hold an end and score runs. But not likely to bowl a side out on their own (unlike Underwood or Swann, or even Monty on a good day).

During their careers Embers et al were the best we had. But statistics don't lie - in Test cricket they were, at best, ordinary.
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Old 17th March 2018, 15:46   #938
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Well, I hope you're right.

But I remember when Ian Salisbury was the bowler tipped to be the next great spinner!
True there have been a few. Every 2 years the papers hit on England's spin problems and come up with 5 names to hit the headlines. Most have normally disappeared within 2 years.
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Old 17th March 2018, 16:12   #939
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During their careers Embers et al were the best we had. But statistics don't lie - in Test cricket they were, at best, ordinary.
Very mean-spirited and unfair on Embers - and your statistics do lie because they are a total fabrication.

Embers averaged 38 runs per wkt in Tests not the 83 you preposterously claim.

My fondest memory of him was during Botham's Ashes in 1981, when he turned the game at Edgbaston. At 90 odd for three, Australia only wanted 60 for victory with Border and Yallop seemingly coasting to a win that would have put the Aussies 2-1 up.

Embers then removed both established batsmen, enabling Botham to clean up the tail in taking 5-11.

That said, I was never his biggest fan. I much prefered the more mercurial Edmonds, who had a better average, economy rate and strike rate in Test cricket.

Embers was also rather a dour man while Henri was - and still is - a wonderful character.

I recall with huge pleasure playing with him after his retirement on tour in Barbados. Brearley was the captain and after net practice there was a chatin the dressing room of the Bridgetown Oval about tactics for the match the following day.

"What do you think, Henri?" Brearley asked.

"F**k me, that's the first time you've ever sought my opinion in 20 years," Henri replied.

They then proceeded to argue about a Test v Australia many years earlier in which Edmonds had bowled a slow-ball bouncer - now a very trendy delivery but then considered an unforgivable faux pas. Brearley told him if he did it again, he was out of the attack - so, of course, Henri did it again.

From memory I think they said it was the first Test of an Ashes series down under. And not only did Brearley take Edmonds off - he didn't play again in the series.

I just sat there p*ssing myself with laughter.
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Old 17th March 2018, 17:20   #940
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Very mean-spirited and unfair on Embers - and your statistics do lie because they are a total fabrication.

Embers averaged 38 runs per wkt in Tests not the 83 you preposterously claim.
And career stats are invariably unhelpful in judging a player at his most valuable. In his initial years - before absconding to take the Rand - Emburey was a very decent act, deemed by many to be the world's number one offie. In 22 Tests, he bagged 56 wickets at 30. His overall record in Australia - so often a graveyard for English twirlers - is 35 wkts @ 32, considerably superior to Swann's. I fancy the one-day game did for Embers' artistry.; while his development of the faster leg stump dart proved a regular factor in Middx's successes, it seemed to ruin the beautiful control of flight and pace that characterised his early bowling.
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