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Old 9th January 2018, 15:58   #1361
Notts Exile
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Pitch doctoring? And I suppose you accuse India of doing that at home too when their pitches don't meet your requirements?

Jeez. One thing you cannot accuse England of is moaning about the pitch doctoring. They might be poor in Australian conditions but at least they accept those conditions.
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Old 9th January 2018, 16:37   #1362
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Less so if you're bowling first. Also not if you have two wayward lefty speedsters spraying them everywhere when you do get to bowl.
Jeez, obsessed by the toss. I went to Day 3 at Edgbaston in 2015, I was cheering on the Aussie runs in the morning so I got to see something like 2 sessions before it finished. Aussies won the toss and batted in that, Starc, Hazlewood and Lyon played (with Johnson). Bowled out for 136.

You can play whatever bowlers you like, but there's not a lot they can do when the batsmen cannot cope with seaming pitches.

Smith had scores of 33,33,7,8,6,5 when there was some life in the wickets.
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Old 9th January 2018, 16:51   #1363
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I think this line that Smith can only score on 'decent' wickets when the ball 'doesn't do anything' (to quote Swann) needs to change to that 'England can't do anything to Smith unless they're at home, in ideal swing bowling conditions, with expert bowers' because he averages 43 in England (despite a poor start) 67 in South Africa which has the most competitive wickets in the world and 131 in NZ which bare the most similarity to English wickets, and he's getting better.
Got to agree with you here, I've abused Smith as well in the past but this guy really is shaping up to be the second best batsman ever. He scores everywhere, he scores on tough pitches, he scores when the heat is on, he leads from the front, he's got all the shots (be it from an unconventional style) and yet he has the patience and discipline to put them away.

Not sure what else you can ask for in a batsman, to be honest - people debate Lara/Ponting/Tendulkar/Kallis but Smith's record smashes them all.
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Old 9th January 2018, 18:23   #1364
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Hmm, I asked a genuine question about whether the Aussie fans thought there side was now a bit more robust and might start fancy winning more series overseas. Seems it's descended into rehashing whose better in what conditions arguments.

I guess the Saffer tour will be a good test, although Australia have generally done quite well there in recent years. If they can keep the three main quicks healthy, I fancy there chances, but I imagine Philander and co at home will re-expose some of the issues in the batting lineup.
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Old 10th January 2018, 00:25   #1365
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Jeez, obsessed by the toss.
Lose the toss on those wickets and you'll likely get rolled cheaply and be up against it for the match. Seen it backfire before.

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You can play whatever bowlers you like, but there's not a lot they can do when the batsmen cannot cope with seaming pitches.
It's your bowlers in Broad and Anderson that are the difference in those conditions. The batsmen are still the same plonkers (for the most part) but play ok if they win the toss so the bowlers get on top early, avoid the worst of conditions, and then face poor bowling themselves. One of those options is 50/50, the other is less likely to happen again.

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Smith had scores of 33,33,7,8,6,5 when there was some life in the wickets.
Fancy that, a batsmen not scoring as many in good bowling conditions against excellent bowling...What a mug lol.

This is simply a few England fans way of dealing with being demoralised for an entire 5 match series in Aus on unusually slow non bouncy pitches that should really have helped their batsmen a lot more than ours, and the realisation they will be no more than competitive in England. Those conditions in Adelaide were the best an English team could possibly hope for in Aus where everything was in their favour conditions wise, yet they still had no real chance.

As Micheal Vaughan says "Australia are a lot closer to winning in England conditions than we are over here. We're miles away from winning here".
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Old 10th January 2018, 00:34   #1366
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Pitch doctoring? And I suppose you accuse India of doing that at home too when their pitches don't meet your requirements?
Of course teams engage a bit of pitch doctoring, as do England. Why wouldn't they? That is stating the obvious isn't it? That talk of it rubs you the wrong way doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Been going on forever and there's not a thing wrong with it. Wish we did more of it. That some England fans see it as their only hope of stopping Smith in particular, is amusing.

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Jeez. One thing you cannot accuse England of is moaning about the pitch doctoring. They might be poor in Australian conditions but at least they accept those conditions.
No one is moaning about pitches. Your pitches, prepare them any way you like. A few England fans constantly bring it up probably because they were just demoralised for an entire series and understand they will probably struggle to beat Aus in England. So they prefer to rattle on about that time they panicked and specially prepared a pitch, won the toss and Broad had a freakish day. Softens the blow and is quite consoling it seems.
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Last edited by thedon : 10th January 2018 at 01:52.
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Old 10th January 2018, 08:29   #1367
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Lose the toss on those wickets and you'll likely get rolled cheaply and be up against it for the match. Seen it backfire before.

As Micheal Vaughan says "Australia are a lot closer to winning in England conditions than we are over here. We're miles away from winning here".
At Edgbaston you won the toss and still got rolled.

I agree with Vaughan, and yet somehow the last team to win an overseas Ashes was England.
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:23   #1368
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Yeah, won the toss and batted. I don't see why you would have sent the opposition in there, was a good wicket. England bowled well in home conditions. We didn't and were outplayed. It happens.
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:48   #1369
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No one is moaning about pitches. Your pitches, prepare them any way you like. A few England fans constantly bring it up probably because they were just demoralised for an entire series and understand they will probably struggle to beat Aus in England.
Every Englishman I know that cares about cricket is truly disappointed with the way our team performs outside England. That doesn't stop us from believing that in English conditions we'll beat most opposition. I would always like to see us prepare English pitches in England just as we get different pitches when we travel, and yes that does mean playing to your strengths.

Vaughan is spot on when he says that Oz are closer to competitive in England than we are down there, that's usually been the case, your skills and strengths are far more transferable.

You laugh if an Englishman suggests we might do well in Oz, ever. We laugh when an Australian suggests that your batting line up will cope on an English pitch. History suggests that only the best Australian batting line ups have any success over here and none of the current mob have ever looked at home outside of Lord's and the Oval. Now, you do have a point that our lot might struggle too, given your bowling strengths. At least it should be an interesting series!
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Old 11th January 2018, 12:59   #1370
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Yes Australia are better equipped to win away than they have been recently - they have two world class batsmen in Smith who keeps just getting better and a maturing Warner who now seems to be able to "bat to the game situation" - allied to a very good bowling attack including a reliable spinner. There are issues with the batting, keeper and injury record/inexperience of pace bowlers and as we saw when Starc was out the backup is not quite of the same quality (Stokes, Wood, Finn, Ball, Overton all injured for England - although none as good as Starc) - But a maturing team going forward.

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It's your bowlers in Broad and Anderson that are the difference in those conditions. The batsmen are still the same plonkers (for the most part) but play ok if they win the toss so the bowlers get on top early, avoid the worst of conditions, and then face poor bowling themselves.
I was at TB when Australia were blown away by Broad in the first session - the thing that I remember most was Root's ton, I have never seen anybody play better - everybody else was simply playing a different game.
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Old 12th January 2018, 16:18   #1371
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It's wrong to suggest England served up green tops in 2015. The wickets did offer more for the bowlers than what we've just seen in Australia but they were hardly venomous. The Cape Town wicket just played on, which saw 16 wickets fall on what was essentially day 3 was much more difficult with exaggerated seam movement and uneven bounce. Australia, in recent years, have always struggled to face and control the swing of the Duke ball. Unless they master it better in 18 months, they may still struggle depending on what side England put out.
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Old 13th January 2018, 00:59   #1372
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It's wrong to suggest England served up green tops in 2015. The wickets did offer more for the bowlers than what we've just seen in Australia but they were hardly venomous. The Cape Town wicket just played on, which saw 16 wickets fall on what was essentially day 3 was much more difficult with exaggerated seam movement and uneven bounce. Australia, in recent years, have always struggled to face and control the swing of the Duke ball. Unless they master it better in 18 months, they may still struggle depending on what side England put out.
Bing bango. With Broad's severe decline in form, he may not even be in the picture by then, and not much of a threat if so. It's Anderson or bust for England.
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Old 13th January 2018, 01:09   #1373
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and 131 in NZ which bare the most similarity to English wickets.
This just isn't that true any more. NZ wickets are vastly better for batting than they were even 10-15 years ago. Gone are the days of just pitching the ball up on a 4th stump line and wait for the batsman to knick the away swinger.
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Old 13th January 2018, 01:50   #1374
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This just isn't that true any more. NZ wickets are vastly better for batting than they were even 10-15 years ago. Gone are the days of just pitching the ball up on a 4th stump line and wait for the batsman to knick the away swinger.
That's a shame. Maybe you should adopt Bellerive oval.
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Old 14th January 2018, 02:14   #1375
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Who, and who? Woakes a demon? The guy who isn't even a first choice pick in your team and averages 50+ away from England? Sounds sustainable. Hopefully he still has a career by the time we next visit.
There is a reason he gets picked and it's not his away form it's because he's surprise surprise rather good in England.... Arguably he shouldn't be picked away from home but even if they'd thought about that for this series our injuries would have had him back in the side anyway.
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Old 14th January 2018, 10:17   #1376
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There is a reason he gets picked and it's not his away form it's because he's surprise surprise rather good in England....
No he's not. He has a good couple of tests v Pakistan but otherwise Wicketless Woakes has been about as mediocre at home as overseas.
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Old 14th January 2018, 10:53   #1377
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No he's not. He has a good couple of tests v Pakistan but otherwise Wicketless Woakes has been about as mediocre at home as overseas.
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Old 15th January 2018, 16:20   #1378
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No he's not. He has a good couple of tests v Pakistan but otherwise Wicketless Woakes has been about as mediocre at home as overseas.
Really? He averages under 25 with the ball in England (and over 40 with the bat), yeah if you take out the Pakistan series it's not as impressive but that is over 1/3 of his home games and the most recent other than the one off against WI where he clearly wasn't back to full fitness.

In overcast conditions he's always looked threatening to me, when the ball isn't moving in the air he doesn't look penetrating at all.
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Old 15th January 2018, 17:21   #1379
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Really? He averages under 25 with the ball in England (and over 40 with the bat), yeah if you take out the Pakistan series it's not as impressive but that is over 1/3 of his home games and the most recent other than the one off against WI where he clearly wasn't back to full fitness.

In overcast conditions he's always looked threatening to me, when the ball isn't moving in the air he doesn't look penetrating at all.
Well the injury issue can't be ignored. He's never stayed fit for particularly long, which might explain why he's never kicked on.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:17   #1380
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Dave Warner has some serious technique issues, hes not maturing between the ears as much as a bat of his experience should be.

Soon as he gets squared up hes in trouble, Smith can play his whole game squared up with no dramas but Warner just cannot play square to the wicket.

Warners becoming very unreliable.
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