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Old 24th July 2016, 08:45   #121
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He's done okay, yes. Think he needs a test hundred to be taken seriously as an all rounder though really.
Or maybe 14 of them?
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Old 24th July 2016, 08:49   #122
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Or maybe 14 of them?
Botham?
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Old 24th July 2016, 09:54   #123
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He's done okay, yes. Think he needs a test hundred to be taken seriously as an all rounder though really.
Sure that's tongue in cheek ("done okay") but he does need to do it consistently, against all comers and around the globe to be a top bowler. Woakes has yet to bowl in a Test outside of England.

Pakistan haven't batted brilliantly in the series, had some moments, but there have been far too many soft dismissals on both sides for any great conclusion to be drawn about a bowler who has taken advantage.

And don't forget the Yasir factor, one match the hero, next match sub zero....

As for Woakes as an all-rounder, a genuine/top class all-rounder who contributes as much with bat as ball would need to score hundreds, definitely. He has made a HS of 25+ against every opponent he's played to date, and since that's 1-3 Tests against any given side that's not bad, but if he is going to be an all-rounder he does need hundreds.

That said, no one would dispute Flintoff as an all-rounder, he only made 5 Test hundreds and only took 3x 5wis............ Woakes has already bagged 2x 5wis so does that mean Flintoff was a batsman who bowled a bit? (like an Ali?)

Point I'm trying to make there is that all-rounders bat and bowl, how many runs they score and how many wickets they take varies and can depend on all sorts. I argue of the classic four of Hadlee, Botham, Khan and Dev that Hadlee was just an exceptional bowler who batted well

I mean would you consider Knott an all-rounder in wicket-keeping terms? He scored FIVE hundreds and a HS of 135, with an average of 32.75, whereas "all-rounder" Hadlee may have batted nine less Tests but made only two hundreds and a HS of 151no (vs Sri Lanka a decade inside of their debut) at only 27.17


My rule of thumb for determining an all-rounder is could they get in a side, maybe not the best Test side, if played as either just a batsman or just a bowler. Woakes would struggle, Knott and Hadlee would have also struggled, as a batsman. Khan and Botham could have made it purely on batting, certainly without bowling much at all and, as I recall, Khan didn't bowl so much in his latter Tests. Dev probably, not so sure on him although I vaguely recall wasn't he the one who hit four sixes to avoid the follow on against England in 1990?

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Stati...MatchCode=1148

Certainly hit four sixes and India just avoided the follow on......... Didn't realise it was THAT match in which Gooch scored his 333. Dev himself only scored 8 hundreds in about double the Tests of Hadlee.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:02   #124
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Or maybe 14 of them?
Indeed. Shame his career tailed off towards the end, not the same cricketer in his last few Tests.

After England won the Ashes down under (86/87) his batting average was 34.96, thereafter he scored only 375 more runs at 22.06 which dropped his overall average to 33.55

It was worse with his bowling though, became also a reverse of Woakes (in terms of pace, hostility, even the average etc) After that Ashes series mentioned above he took just 17 more wickets @ 54.00, thus dropping his career average from 27.21 to 28.40. Still respectable overall, but he could easily have been way over 400 wickets in the bag had he not suffered injuries and a decline in his bowling.
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:57   #125
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Woakes bowled in South Africa
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Old 24th July 2016, 11:14   #126
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Has a player even shown such a drastic improvement at Test level?

It's pretty remarkable how good his is right now.
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Old 24th July 2016, 22:22   #127
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Woakes needs some tattoos and a new hairstyle to improve his image then he'll be appreciated more
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Old 24th July 2016, 22:28   #128
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He also needs to learn how to bat ugly.
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Old 24th July 2016, 22:58   #129
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Woakes needs some tattoos and a new hairstyle to improve his image then he'll be appreciated more
Please no. Can't stand the Hales and Topley look. Much prefer the tattoo free Anderson, Broad, Cook, Root and Woakes look.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:11   #130
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Please no. Can't stand the Hales and Topley look. Much prefer the tattoo free Anderson, Broad, Cook, Root and Woakes look.
Woakes does look refreshingly ordinary and unaffected, doesn't he? The sort of bloke you could work next to in a factory, when such places existed.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:13   #131
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"An all rounder should get in the side for either skill" klaxon.

Clearly this statement is horseshit. This means that someone is both one of the best six batsman in the country and one of the best four/5 bowlers. How many players has this applied to?

Kallis and sobers?

Botham was not a brilliant batsman
Khan was a brilliant bowler and okay bat and then good bowler and good bat.
Kapil was bowler who batted.
Flintoff was not a better batsman than Graham Thorpe in 2005.

An all rounder needs to be good at both - he does not have to be best available in both.

Did you know that the last time warks won the title woakes averaged 25 with ball and over 70 with bat. Not bad.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:22   #132
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Woakes does look refreshingly ordinary and unaffected, doesn't he? The sort of bloke you could work next to in a factory, when such places existed.
Certainly at the cricket I felt in the minority for not sporting a tattoo.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:22   #133
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Originally Posted by Sir Virgs and Zamora View Post
"An all rounder should get in the side for either skill" klaxon.

Clearly this statement is horseshit. This means that someone is both one of the best six batsman in the country and one of the best four/5 bowlers. How many players has this applied to?

Kallis and sobers?

Botham was not a brilliant batsman
Khan was a brilliant bowler and okay bat and then good bowler and good bat.
Kapil was bowler who batted.
Flintoff was not a better batsman than Graham Thorpe in 2005.

An all rounder needs to be good at both - he does not have to be best available in both.

Did you know that the last time warks won the title woakes averaged 25 with ball and over 70 with bat. Not bad.
No, but he was better than Ian Bell, and the other alternatives at the time, eg Key, Smith, until Colly came along and Bell improved.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:27   #134
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2005 batsman rating

GO Jones
*daylight*
KP
Tres
Strauss
Flintoff
Vaughan
Bell
Gilo
Hoggy/Colly
Harmy
SiJo
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:32   #135
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Woakes does look refreshingly ordinary and unaffected, doesn't he? The sort of bloke you could work next to in a factory, when such places existed.
He looks more like a bank clerk, having a very pleasant manner with customers.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:43   #136
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No, but he was better than Ian Bell, and the other alternatives at the time, eg Key, Smith, until Colly came along and Bell improved.
Thorpe was better than flintoff with the bat but did not get in the side over bell.

His career average was what 32 or 33? A fine ODI batsman but apart from two years he was not a test batsman.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:44   #137
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2005 batsman rating

GO Jones
*daylight*
KP
Tres
Strauss
Flintoff
Vaughan
Bell
Gilo
Hoggy/Colly
Harmy
SiJo
Probably a bigger gap between go Jo and the rest but just because someone performed better in one series does not make them a better player overall.

Back to Chris woakes. Brilliant player.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:49   #138
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Probably a bigger gap between go Jo and the rest but just because someone performed better in one series does not make them a better player overall.

Back to Chris woakes. Brilliant player.
Indeed, it was career based.

Also, I agree. Viva la Woakes.
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Old 24th July 2016, 23:49   #139
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Actually that's rubbish because if it was career based Colly would be second with daylight between him and KP in 3rd
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Old 25th July 2016, 00:05   #140
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And of course bell and Vaughan would be miles ahead of flintoff but then your point falls apart as Fred 8th best in that series. Therefore worse than Thorpe.
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