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Old 27th July 2016, 12:55   #161
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I could quibble a bit about the general point you're making Sans, although I see what you're saying. On Woakes though, it is of course entirely possible that the selectors preferred Woakes to alternative replacements for Stokes because he can bat but anyone paying attention to his county season and indeed his overall record would regard him as an exceptional bowler, consistently among the very best in the country. The only argument against picking him ahead of other bowlers just as a bowler was his test record but as he and many other players so clearly demonstrate, judging a player on his stats from a smal number of tests is a very poorly predictive approach.
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Old 11th December 2016, 10:12   #162
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Chris Woakes has bowled in 32 test innings. On 20 of those occasions he has taken no more than 1 wicket, including 12 instances where he's not taken a single one. After his marvellous summer, and it clearly was, the trend of binary returns has come back.
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Old 11th December 2016, 10:15   #163
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Was anyone expecting him to set the world alight this winter? None of our seamers have, with the possible exception of Stokes (who has also only taken more than one wicket in an innings once this series).
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Old 11th December 2016, 10:19   #164
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Wasn't Woakes supposed to be the reverse swing expert?
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Old 11th December 2016, 10:44   #165
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Wasn't Woakes supposed to be the reverse swing expert?
No. Stokes, Anderson, Wood and to a lesser extent Finn are the bowlers we have who we'd expect to reverse it. Woakes gets good conventional swing, although perhaps not as much as he used to, but doesn't have the right kind of action to reverse it.
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Old 11th December 2016, 10:45   #166
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No. Stokes, Anderson, Wood and to a lesser extent Finn are the bowlers we have who we'd expect to reverse it. Woakes gets good conventional swing, although perhaps not as much as he used to, but doesn't have the right kind of action to reverse it.
Ah ok. Probably I got confused between Woakes and Wood.
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Old 11th December 2016, 11:03   #167
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Was anyone expecting him to set the world alight this winter? None of our seamers have, with the possible exception of Stokes (who has also only taken more than one wicket in an innings once this series).
Well, we've generally played too many bowlers and too many seamers, but that's for another thread.

I think, though, that when touring sides have succeeded in India it has been on the basis of strong performances from their quick bowlers. Woakes was our best bowler this summer but in India has slipped back into the type of anonymity that has characterised much of his international career to date.
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Old 11th December 2016, 11:15   #168
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Well, we've generally played too many bowlers and too many seamers, but that's for another thread.

I think, though, that when touring sides have succeeded in India it has been on the basis of strong performances from their quick bowlers. Woakes was our best bowler this summer but in India has slipped back into the type of anonymity that has characterised much of his international career to date.
But so have all of our seamers. Obviously Woakes has developing still to do but he's probably the least well-suited of our bowlers to these conditions. In general I don't think he's bowled badly at all, and part of the problem has been that India can see off the quick bowlers and gorge themselves on buffet bowling from our bang average spinners.

I fully expect him to enjoy another good summer when SA and WI come to town. It would be great if he can learn from Jimmy and Broad, who between them have developed from bowlers - Jimmy particularly - who were criticised for being home bullies into ones who have performed well in pretty much all conditions. I just don't see him as a concern for this side right now.
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Old 11th December 2016, 11:51   #169
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But so have all of our seamers. Obviously Woakes has developing still to do but he's probably the least well-suited of our bowlers to these conditions. In general I don't think he's bowled badly at all, and part of the problem has been that India can see off the quick bowlers and gorge themselves on buffet bowling from our bang average spinners.

I fully expect him to enjoy another good summer when SA and WI come to town. It would be great if he can learn from Jimmy and Broad, who between them have developed from bowlers - Jimmy particularly - who were criticised for being home bullies into ones who have performed well in pretty much all conditions. I just don't see him as a concern for this side right now.
I don't think he should be dropped - except maybe for the last test. He may well enjoy bowling back in England but at the moment I'm really scratching my head as to how he'll take wickets down under next winter.
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Old 11th December 2016, 12:11   #170
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I don't think he should be dropped - except maybe for the last test. He may well enjoy bowling back in England but at the moment I'm really scratching my head as to how he'll take wickets down under next winter.
You could say that about most our players. Broad and Stokes could be useful, but there's no one rapid who could be destructive.
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Old 11th December 2016, 12:16   #171
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I don't think he should be dropped - except maybe for the last test. He may well enjoy bowling back in England but at the moment I'm really scratching my head as to how he'll take wickets down under next winter.
That's fair. He's got another year to continue getting experience at this level so hopefully he'll develop some tricks. It's notable that Jimmy has tended to struggle in Oz, too. He picked up rucks of Pakistan wickets at Lords, at least. That certainly wasn't a stereotypical English wicket.
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Old 11th December 2016, 13:32   #172
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That's fair. He's got another year to continue getting experience at this level so hopefully he'll develop some tricks. It's notable that Jimmy has tended to struggle in Oz, too. He picked up rucks of Pakistan wickets at Lords, at least. That certainly wasn't a stereotypical English wicket.
True. Over time Jimmy has learnt to swing both ways without obvious changes in his action and he added reverse swing, which has helped him in the SC. Woakes can swing it but if there's not much on offer, he's very straight up and down.
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Old 12th December 2016, 12:10   #173
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........ and his batting has hardly been special. He looks like a batsman but doesn't deliver like one. Well, unless it's one of those we've tried and failed with in the last few years, in which case he does look like one.
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Old 12th December 2016, 13:37   #174
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Shockingly misused this test. He should have been asked to bowl short spells and bowl a lot of short stuff. This was only done yesterday morning when the horse had long since bolted. However it is fair to say that he doesn't at this moment possess anything like the tools to be successful in Asia.
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Old 12th December 2016, 14:41   #175
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Shockingly misused this test. He should have been asked to bowl short spells and bowl a lot of short stuff. This was only done yesterday morning when the horse had long since bolted. However it is fair to say that he doesn't at this moment possess anything like the tools to be successful in Asia.
I thought he wasted the first new ball to order by bowling at Vijay's head?
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Old 12th December 2016, 15:00   #176
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Shockingly misused this test. He should have been asked to bowl short spells and bowl a lot of short stuff. This was only done yesterday morning when the horse had long since bolted. However it is fair to say that he doesn't at this moment possess anything like the tools to be successful in Asia.
That was always my worry with him. Perhaps shades of Sidebottom who blew away home teams but then fell away when playing overseas. There is still time to develop more tricks though.
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Old 12th December 2016, 15:39   #177
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I thought he wasted the first new ball to order by bowling at Vijay's head?
I didn't say that he bowled well with the new ball- he didn't, but as things go in India when you realise that it is not going to swing conventionally you need other plans. Bouncer then yorker might be a way to go in subsequent spells, not banishment to the outfield so that when you come back you are as stiff as a board. I thought it was bad enough last test when poor Batty had to wait until the 47th over. I thought he'd developed rigor mortis by then. It can be mini spells but letting poor Mo bowl himself into the ground really wasn't the way to go either.
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:04   #178
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...Perhaps shades of Sidebottom who blew away home teams but then fell away when playing overseas. ...
To be fair, Sidebottom probably suffered more than other bowlers from catches dropped by the keeper, notably so in one series in Sri Lanka.
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Old 10th September 2017, 10:04   #179
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First 6 tests (11 innings bowled), 8 wickets at 63.75. Took more than 1 wicket just once.

Second 6 tests (12 innings bowled), over last Summer, 34 wickets at 17.20. Took 2 wickets or more in all but two very abridged innings.

Third 6 tests (11 innngs bowled), 8 wickets at 54.37. Again just one effort where he took more than the single wicket.

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Old 10th September 2017, 10:40   #180
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Did he play all series in India? Given the struggle of all our seamers there and his clear unreadiness for his comeback test I'm not sure too much can be drawn from that, beyond the pleasing symmetry of course.
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