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Old 26th May 2016, 22:54   #181
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Don't think that run of scores really means an awful lot for tests, when plenty of them were in ODI or especially T20 cricket batting right down the order and having to slog. Lumping those innings in with tests, including being stitched up with opening doesn't in itself create a convincing case against his batting, although he certainly hasn't been a success with the bat in tests recently and that does weaken his position.
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Old 26th May 2016, 23:03   #182
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I think you'll find

Rashid 8 at 69.5
Ali 4 at 54

Batting

Rashid 20.66
Ali 30

I think you'll find you've used Ali's worst 3 match run not his last 3 matches. Ali's figures would have been better but for Bairstow's dropped catch.

Frankly your comparison with White and Pringle is not particularly insightful. Ali has already taken more wickets than White in 6 less tests and only 5 less than Pringle. He has a better batting average than White and a much better one than Pringle who only averaged 15. He also has the lowest strike rate per wicket.

The biggest difference when you look at the bowling is Ali has taken wickets in all bar 2 tests he's played, whereas White and Pringle both failed to take wickets in 7 plus. So yes Ali has fewer 5 wicket hauls but he more regularly chips in with some wickets and they are more often than not top-order batsman. Pringle played a reasonable number of tests as first change bowler and quite often in a 4 man attack, White in a few tests and Ali not at all, so both will have had more opportunity to take 5 wickets. Ali is also part of an attack with the best pace bowling partnership since Botham and Willis and possibly even before that, which does mean he gets relatively little opportunity to bowl at the tail - because any sane Captain will bring one or both on when the tail comes in and both are now excellent and clearing up the tail, particularly Broad. The only time Ali has taken tail end wickets recently was when Anderson was injured.

In terms of what they brought to the team Ali and White is the fairer comparison - as all rounders there records are well ahead of Pringle, although Pringle's bowling average is better than I remember. Both were mainly used as a 5th bowler, White once or twice as a 4th bowler. Ali's batting and bowling records are more consistent and White had occasional high batting scores but fewer decent innings - almost all of which came in his last 6 tests. Ali also has the more consistent bowling record, White more likely to take 5 wickets and also get none and go for a few. Both were/are decent cricketers who contributed something. Of the 3 Ali will have most runs, most wickets, the highest batting average, the lowest bowling strike rate but probably the highest bowling average by the end of the summer when he will have reached 30 tests. Both White and Ali actually took a lot of top order wickets, so the value of both as bowlers is a little understated by stats - if your bowling average is 40 and you mainly bowl at batsmen averaging 45 you aren't actually doing that badly.
It's all well and good demolishing his arguments with facts and reasoning but you've missed a key stat:

No of Jock's cats run over:

Pringle 0
White 0
M Ali 1
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Old 26th May 2016, 23:39   #183
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It's all well and good demolishing his arguments with facts and reasoning but you've missed a key stat:

No of Jock's cats run over:

Pringle 0
White 0
M Ali 1
How do you know it's just one of Jock's cats? Could easily be two or three from his level of otherwise apparently irrational hatred.
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Old 26th May 2016, 23:43   #184
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How do you know it's just one of Jock's cats? Could easily be two or three from his level of otherwise apparently irrational hatred.
Was corbo cat sitting the cat at the time?
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Old 27th May 2016, 01:59   #185
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The best 4 slow bowlers in England (qualified obviously)atm (unless you count Woakes) are Moeen, Rashid, Kerrigan and Panesar. I think Kerrigan should miss out on India. Offie, leggie and a slaffer. Put that together with a few bats who can play when it's turning sqaure and we might have a vague chance of a result.
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Old 27th May 2016, 08:19   #186
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Isnt fat Sam as good as most of them? Why are we judging monty on the player he was five years ago?
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Old 27th May 2016, 08:34   #187
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Monty will always now be mentioned until he retires. A bit like how Tres kept getting supports for recall well after it was clear he could never return.
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Old 27th May 2016, 14:04   #188
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The best 4 slow bowlers in England (qualified obviously)atm (unless you count Woakes) are Moeen, Rashid, Kerrigan and Panesar. I think Kerrigan should miss out on India. Offie, leggie and a slaffer. Put that together with a few bats who can play when it's turning sqaure and we might have a vague chance of a result.
Moeen isn't in the top 14 slow bowlers in England.
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Old 27th May 2016, 21:47   #189
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Moeen isn't in the top 14 slow bowlers in England.
Defined in ascending order of number of your cats run over?
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Old 28th May 2016, 18:21   #190
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Ten pages in and Ollie Rayner hasn't even got a mention (though he has now) - somewhat surprising given the relatively limited options.

It's not so long ago that he was in the Lions set-up. His height when bowling is a big asset. What's more he's an absolutely top slip fielder, can bat and seems to be a bright bloke.

He could almost certainly do a good job in India.

Much though I like Monty, I find it amazing that someone who has played just a smattering of first-class cricket in two seasons, cannot bat or field and has unfortunately had serious personal problems would be thought of as an option at all. Given that he has taken 11 wickets in Division 2 since the start of last season, I can't see either how he is one of the best 4 slow bowlers in England.
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Old 28th May 2016, 19:10   #191
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Defined in ascending order of number of your cats run over?
Swann used his car to buy a screwdriver (other cocktails available) to free his cat; Moeen just uses his car to run over Jock's cats.
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Old 28th May 2016, 19:20   #192
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Swann used his car to buy a screwdriver (other cocktails available)
V. good.
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Old 28th May 2016, 19:29   #193
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Ten pages in and Ollie Rayner hasn't even got a mention (though he has now) - somewhat surprising given the relatively limited options.

It's not so long ago that he was in the Lions set-up. His height when bowling is a big asset. What's more he's an absolutely top slip fielder, can bat and seems to be a bright bloke.

He could almost certainly do a good job in India.

Much though I like Monty, I find it amazing that someone who has played just a smattering of first-class cricket in two seasons, cannot bat or field and has unfortunately had serious personal problems would be thought of as an option at all. Given that he has taken 11 wickets in Division 2 since the start of last season, I can't see either how he is one of the best 4 slow bowlers in England.
If either Raynor or Monty perform in county cricket this summer than they are in.

Woakes has taken 29 wickets at 21.37 this year. When a spinner produces similar returns again they can expect a call-up.

I think a six-man attack could be a legitimate option for England in Bangladesh and India (5 seamers plus Ali).
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Old 28th May 2016, 19:53   #194
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If either Raynor or Monty perform in county cricket this summer than they are in.

Woakes has taken 29 wickets at 21.37 this year. When a spinner produces similar returns again they can expect a call-up.

I think a six-man attack could be a legitimate option for England in Bangladesh and India (5 seamers plus Ali).
The amount of raging bunsens in recent seasons in India suggest even the most bog standard of spinner should do alright. That said, Rayner's extra bounce could be useful, plus he has a couple of first class hundreds.
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:08   #195
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How many spin bowlers who are qualified for England have a first class average in the 20s? I can think of one. He has an economy rate of 2.5
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:20   #196
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Ten pages in and Ollie Rayner hasn't even got a mention (though he has now) - somewhat surprising given the relatively limited options.

It's not so long ago that he was in the Lions set-up. His height when bowling is a big asset. What's more he's an absolutely top slip fielder, can bat and seems to be a bright bloke.

He could almost certainly do a good job in India.

Much though I like Monty, I find it amazing that someone who has played just a smattering of first-class cricket in two seasons, cannot bat or field and has unfortunately had serious personal problems would be thought of as an option at all. Given that he has taken 11 wickets in Division 2 since the start of last season, I can't see either how he is one of the best 4 slow bowlers in England.
I think you're right. We need to put the Monty talk to bed.
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:49   #197
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How many spin bowlers who are qualified for England have a first class average in the 20s? I can think of one. He has an economy rate of 2.5
Kerrigan and Crane both just, though very early for Crane obviously and it would be a bit of a leap of faith to trust Kerrigan again.
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:51   #198
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Kerrigan and Crane both just, though very early for Crane obviously and it would be a bit of a leap of faith to trust Kerrigan again.
Cool. So when we add jack leach (Taunton bowler as we are told this counts against batsmen) we have three. Good stuff.
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:52   #199
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I think you're right. We need to put the Monty talk to bed.
Has anyone checked if there is a correlation between those who talk about monty coming back and those who suggest the other chap should come back too?
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Old 28th May 2016, 20:56   #200
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Has anyone checked if there is a correlation between those who talk about monty coming back and those who suggest the other chap should come back too?
Ask Sans
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