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Old 20th June 2017, 14:33   #1
billyguntheballs
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England (Medium) Fast Bowling?

What to do?

Looking at the main stay of bowlers in and around the ODI squad, there are players with some pretty bad numbers.

Ben Stokes averages 39
Jake ball averages 37
Mark Wood 43 (!!!)
David Willey 35
Chris Woakes 32
Liam Plunkett 30 (phew)
Chris Jordan 36
Steven Finn 29

Apart from Plunkett and Finn (injured I believe?) those numbers make for terrible, terrible reading. When you look at bowlers like Junaid, Amir, Ali, Rabada, Starc and Hazlewood they all average in their 20s (I think Starc's maybe 19).

The bowlers that have been kept away from the ODI in the last 18 or so months, Jimmy and Broad, average 29 and 30 respectively. So why are they being pushed away from the team? I can't remember which one of the two it was but he stated he wantedt o play ODI cricket and yet they're not allowed to.

I believe England should look to utilise experience with youth. Have Anderson and Broad in the side, with Wood (who I think is improving a lot) and Plunkett. The experience of the former will rub off on the latter. On top of that, it puts less pressure on, and let's be entirely frank about this, a man who bowls as nothing more than a part timer, Mr Stokes. He is not an all rounder and never will be. He lacks any sting, any creativity and most importantly, the skill required of a wicket taker and that is what England need.

Imagine the bowling line up being that, with Rashid added on. Now that's a team I'd trust bowling at a target below 300 (England's batsmen can't make 300+ all the time against better bowling sides on less than perfect roads).

Additionally, for those of you who follow the county scene more than I do, how good aret he bowlers I see topping the RL Cup lists? Is Curran qualified to play for England? Is Liddle too old? Is JOnes due in for an extended run in the side?
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Old 20th June 2017, 16:24   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyguntheballs View Post
What to do?

Looking at the main stay of bowlers in and around the ODI squad, there are players with some pretty bad numbers.

Ben Stokes averages 39
Jake ball averages 37
Mark Wood 43 (!!!)
David Willey 35
Chris Woakes 32
Liam Plunkett 30 (phew)
Chris Jordan 36
Steven Finn 29

Apart from Plunkett and Finn (injured I believe?) those numbers make for terrible, terrible reading. When you look at bowlers like Junaid, Amir, Ali, Rabada, Starc and Hazlewood they all average in their 20s (I think Starc's maybe 19).

The bowlers that have been kept away from the ODI in the last 18 or so months, Jimmy and Broad, average 29 and 30 respectively. So why are they being pushed away from the team? I can't remember which one of the two it was but he stated he wantedt o play ODI cricket and yet they're not allowed to.

I believe England should look to utilise experience with youth. Have Anderson and Broad in the side, with Wood (who I think is improving a lot) and Plunkett. The experience of the former will rub off on the latter. On top of that, it puts less pressure on, and let's be entirely frank about this, a man who bowls as nothing more than a part timer, Mr Stokes. He is not an all rounder and never will be. He lacks any sting, any creativity and most importantly, the skill required of a wicket taker and that is what England need.

Imagine the bowling line up being that, with Rashid added on. Now that's a team I'd trust bowling at a target below 300 (England's batsmen can't make 300+ all the time against better bowling sides on less than perfect roads).

Additionally, for those of you who follow the county scene more than I do, how good aret he bowlers I see topping the RL Cup lists? Is Curran qualified to play for England? Is Liddle too old? Is JOnes due in for an extended run in the side?
The selectors are not allowed to pick Anderson and Broad. Both still want to play but Strauss won't let them.

List A (bowlers involved with England)

71 games 538.2 overs 113 wickets at 24.29 econ 5.09 s/r 28.5 - Roland-Jones (29)
45 games 345.4 overs 78 wickets at 24.83 econ 5.60 s/r 26.5 - Topley (23)
51 games 378.3 overs 78 wickets at 26.15 econ 5.38 s/r 29.1 - TCurran (22)
18 games 117.0 overs 21 wickets at 26.47 econ 4.75 s/r 33.4 - Helm (23)
24 games 158.5 overs 37 wickets at 27.89 econ 6.49 s/r 25.7 - JOverton (23)
36 games 221.5 overs 47 wickets at 29.51 econ 6.25 s/r 28.3 - Footitt (31)
52 games 360.1 overs 70 wickets at 29.74 econ 5.78 s/r 30.8 - Fuller (27)
45 games 340.0 overs 59 wickets at 29.81 econ 5.17 s/r 34.5 - Wood (27)
36 games 265.1 overs 44 wickets at 33.34 econ 5.36 s/r 36.1 - S Curran (19)

What England want is bowlers who can bat like Roland-Jones, Fuller and Overton.
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Old 20th June 2017, 17:01   #3
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Over-reaction. Woakes is currently our best bowler and was injured. Ball, therefore, wouldn't have played. Ball, Stokes and Wood should all start to settle into ODI cricket, it's not that long since two of them really broke into the side. As usual we look to apply different rules to bowlers than we do for batsmen.
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Old 20th June 2017, 18:39   #4
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With the amount that Jimmy and Broad have broken down with niggles, them playing ODIs wouldn't be the best idea really. I also think in the current era their averages would be a lot higher as neither particularly has great variety or quality of yorker. I'd certainly prefer Plunkett and Wood on what I've seen recently. Ball I'm not so sure of.
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Old 20th June 2017, 19:09   #5
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With the amount that Jimmy and Broad have broken down with niggles, them playing ODIs wouldn't be the best idea really. I also think in the current era their averages would be a lot higher as neither particularly has great variety or quality of yorker. I'd certainly prefer Plunkett and Wood on what I've seen recently. Ball I'm not so sure of.
Don't think much of the batsmen these days - Gilchrist, Hayden, Gayle, Jayasuriya, Hussey, Anwar, Yousuf, Lara, Tendulkar, Sangakkara, Ponting, Sehwag, Gibbs, Jayawardene, Dilshan, Bevan to name a few JA bowled at.
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Old 20th June 2017, 19:23   #6
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Don't think much of the batsmen these days - Gilchrist, Hayden, Gayle, Jayasuriya, Hussey, Anwar, Yousuf, Lara, Tendulkar, Sangakkara, Ponting, Sehwag, Gibbs, Jayawardene, Dilshan, Bevan to name a few JA bowled at.
All great players but only a few of them have strike rates comparable to the current era. If they'd have developed in the last five years and faced Jimmy they'd most likely completely marmalise his bowling, especially now the white ball doesn't swing and he's always been bad at the death.
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Old 20th June 2017, 19:43   #7
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I'm with Sharky here. Jimmy and Stuey's white ball time has come and gone. What England do need to do is look for the next lot of actual decent white ball seam bowlers in the Royal London etc although I'm not really sure who has had a storming season tbh.

Woakes, Wood and Plunkett are decent bowlers but beyond them we lack depth and I don't rate white ball Ball at all.
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Old 20th June 2017, 21:34   #8
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I actually think that the 6 we have work well as a unit, without any of them being standout. Wood has the potential to be really good. Unfortunately for him, he hasn't played much and when he has, it's been in some very high scoring matches.

It was Broad that said that he wanted to be involved in the 2019 WC. I personally felt as though both he and Anderson were decent when we were at home but quite useless away. As the WC is in England I wouldn't be against Broad making a return but they'd have to manage when he played meaningless bilateral series. Has it actually been confirmed that Strauss has blocked selectors from picking Broad and Anderson? I can't imagine they'd ever want to pick Jimmy anymore and I can't really see them being prevented from picking Broad, if they felt he was the best man.

Of the current lot, Wood and Woakes are very good. I agree that Stokes' white ball bowling needs a lot of improvement, but he gets in for his batting anyway. Plunkett has had a great two years, but age may beat him in the race to the next WC. I think they might look elsewhere for a left arm bowler in ODIs as Willey just struggles with an older ball. He might still be handy in t20s as he can bowl 3/4 first up. Jake Ball doesn't look to be international standard to me but the pundits seem to rate him. We shall see.

Outside of the squad, it's probably about time that Tom Curran was given his chance. He's got brilliant variations and can bowl anywhere in the innings. Reece Topley really impressed me in is brief spell in an England shirt. Injury, his batting and his fielding might count against him, but he could be the left arm answer. Having said that, they clearly think that Sam Curran is the future. As a Surrey regular, I can say that Tom is comfortably better at the moment, but Sam has time on his hands.

Roland-Jones and the Overtons can bat but I reckon that Jamie is the only one whose bowling will come good. Jordan won't play ODIs again; very good in the shortest format but 10 overs is too many for him.

I haven't seen much of the two Middlesex boys, Helm and Fuller. They're aren't always county regulars so I'd imagine they're way down the list. Steve Finn is an interesting one. If he bowls at his best, he might be the best bowler in the country, but how often does he do it these days? I wish he was the Finn of four years ago.

In summary, in an attack of 4 seamers and 2 spinners, Wood and Woakes have to play. Stokes gets in for his batting, leaving a space for a genuine number 10/11 (Wood would be the other tailender). Right now, I'd probably go for Tom Curran (on his bowling skills alone), unless they think that Plunkett will be around in 2 years. In which case, stick with him.
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Old 20th June 2017, 22:09   #9
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Interesting you rate Tom so far ahead of Sam - whenever I've seen them this season Sam has played better and his ODC figures are a fair bit better. Do certainly rate Tom as a really skilful bowler though and he seems more of a natural white ball bowler. Also agree on Topley whose potential is enormous but I really worry about his fitness.
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Old 20th June 2017, 22:12   #10
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Interesting you rate Tom so far ahead of Sam - whenever I've seen them this season Sam has played better and his ODC figures are a fair bit better. Do certainly rate Tom as a really skilful bowler though and he seems more of a natural white ball bowler. Also agree on Topley whose potential is enormous but I really worry about his fitness.
Sam is probably a better new ball bowler but I think Tom is more adaptable and uses his brain a bit more. Let's face it, they're both going to play England for a very long time.
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Old 21st June 2017, 01:24   #11
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All great players but only a few of them have strike rates comparable to the current era. If they'd have developed in the last five years and faced Jimmy they'd most likely completely marmalise his bowling, especially now the white ball doesn't swing and he's always been bad at the death.
He hasn't been that bad.

Last 4 overs in ODIs

154.2-2-1109-61 - Anderson (econ 7.18)
101.2-1-737-37 - Broad (7.27)
100.3-1-722-32 - Bresnan (7.18)
71.2-2-585-30 - Woakes (8.20)
49.1-0-411-26 - Finn (8.36)
36.0-1-242-14 - Plunkett (6.72)
32.4-2-278-12 - Dernbach (8.51)
30.3-0-253-13 - Stokes (8.29)
23.2-0-222-14 - Jordan (9.51)
19.1-0-146-3 - Wood (7.62)
16.3-0-137-5 - Willey (8.30)
15.5-0-125-2 - Ball (7.89)
12.3-0-118-7 - Gurney (9.44)
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Old 21st June 2017, 09:22   #12
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Originally Posted by 1000yardstare View Post
He hasn't been that bad.

Last 4 overs in ODIs

154.2-2-1109-61 - Anderson (econ 7.18)
101.2-1-737-37 - Broad (7.27)
100.3-1-722-32 - Bresnan (7.18)
71.2-2-585-30 - Woakes (8.20)
49.1-0-411-26 - Finn (8.36)
36.0-1-242-14 - Plunkett (6.72)
32.4-2-278-12 - Dernbach (8.51)
30.3-0-253-13 - Stokes (8.29)
23.2-0-222-14 - Jordan (9.51)
19.1-0-146-3 - Wood (7.62)
16.3-0-137-5 - Willey (8.30)
15.5-0-125-2 - Ball (7.89)
12.3-0-118-7 - Gurney (9.44)
With the best will in the world some context has to be given that he hasn't played in 2.5 years in ODIs and scoring rates appear to be going up and up. Players who've played more than a few years ago are going to have a bit of an advantage over those who've only played in the last 2/3 years, let alone don't have that many overs to have proved themselves one way or the other. For instance Plunkett seems to have started to do a decent job, certainly in the last couple of years but there is a certain deficit when looking at the stats of those who have say only bowled around 30 overs or less in those periods, with the exception of Dernbach who was simply awful and Gurney who was given a summer and quickly discarded.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:48   #13
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The selectors are not allowed to pick Anderson and Broad. Both still want to play but Strauss won't let them.

List A (bowlers involved with England)

71 games 538.2 overs 113 wickets at 24.29 econ 5.09 s/r 28.5 - Roland-Jones (29)
45 games 345.4 overs 78 wickets at 24.83 econ 5.60 s/r 26.5 - Topley (23)
51 games 378.3 overs 78 wickets at 26.15 econ 5.38 s/r 29.1 - TCurran (22)
18 games 117.0 overs 21 wickets at 26.47 econ 4.75 s/r 33.4 - Helm (23)
24 games 158.5 overs 37 wickets at 27.89 econ 6.49 s/r 25.7 - JOverton (23)
36 games 221.5 overs 47 wickets at 29.51 econ 6.25 s/r 28.3 - Footitt (31)
52 games 360.1 overs 70 wickets at 29.74 econ 5.78 s/r 30.8 - Fuller (27)
45 games 340.0 overs 59 wickets at 29.81 econ 5.17 s/r 34.5 - Wood (27)
36 games 265.1 overs 44 wickets at 33.34 econ 5.36 s/r 36.1 - S Curran (19)

What England want is bowlers who can bat like Roland-Jones, Fuller and Overton.
Yep I alluded to Jimmy and broad not being picked. List A averaged are useless if you can't perform at the highest level.

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Over-reaction. Woakes is currently our best bowler and was injured. Ball, therefore, wouldn't have played. Ball, Stokes and Wood should all start to settle into ODI cricket, it's not that long since two of them really broke into the side. As usual we look to apply different rules to bowlers than we do for batsmen.
Woakes averages 30 or 31 but I highly doubt he would have been enough to improve the quality of the line up. Take out Rashid and the England team is woefully low on wickets with only Plunkett looking ready enough.

And almost all the England bowlers can bat, have you not been watching cricket these last 2 years? That's a major issue for me. Too many England teams are bing picked on the idea of playing on completely flat roads with batsmen all the way down to 11. In fact, looking at that list A collection and having seen most of them play, I won't hold my breath for a world class ODI bowler.

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With the amount that Jimmy and Broad have broken down with niggles, them playing ODIs wouldn't be the best idea really. I also think in the current era their averages would be a lot higher as neither particularly has great variety or quality of yorker. I'd certainly prefer Plunkett and Wood on what I've seen recently. Ball I'm not so sure of.
Every bowler breaks down with niggles. So by your logic England should not pick Wood and Woakes?

I do agree that Plunket and Wood look like the best options, with Wood improving a lot so I expect his numbers to be a lot better end of 2017 and PLunkett a proven commodity who needs to work on a little more variety.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 12:37   #14
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Yep I alluded to Jimmy and broad not being picked. List A averaged are useless if you can't perform at the highest level.



Woakes averages 30 or 31 but I highly doubt he would have been enough to improve the quality of the line up. Take out Rashid and the England team is woefully low on wickets with only Plunkett looking ready enough.

And almost all the England bowlers can bat, have you not been watching cricket these last 2 years? That's a major issue for me. Too many England teams are bing picked on the idea of playing on completely flat roads with batsmen all the way down to 11. In fact, looking at that list A collection and having seen most of them play, I won't hold my breath for a world class ODI bowler.



Every bowler breaks down with niggles. So by your logic England should not pick Wood and Woakes?

I do agree that Plunket and Wood look like the best options, with Wood improving a lot so I expect his numbers to be a lot better end of 2017 and PLunkett a proven commodity who needs to work on a little more variety.
Anderson and Broad are so important to our Test attack and nearer the end than the start of their careers. Hopefully Broad can keep going another Test cycle round the world if managed correctly. I don't think Wood will play much if any Test cricket so should concentrate on ODIs and T20. It's about managing the bowlers we have available to us to get the best out of all of them.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 12:51   #15
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I don't think Wood will play much if any Test cricket so should concentrate on ODIs and T20.
I suspect you're right. If he does play the odd test I don't think he should be asked to bowl more than 16-18 overs per day (i.e. 3 or 4 short spells at top pace).
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Old 26th June 2017, 11:21   #16
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Anderson and Broad are so important to our Test attack and nearer the end than the start of their careers. Hopefully Broad can keep going another Test cycle round the world if managed correctly. I don't think Wood will play much if any Test cricket so should concentrate on ODIs and T20. It's about managing the bowlers we have available to us to get the best out of all of them.
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I suspect you're right. If he does play the odd test I don't think he should be asked to bowl more than 16-18 overs per day (i.e. 3 or 4 short spells at top pace).
Agree about Wood.

Sharky, you've made an interesting point "manage the best Eengland have"...problem is, the best seems pretty bad in all honesty. Remember, we're talking ODIs here and apart from Woods pace and trajectory, I'm not hugely confident in any English ODI bowler. Plunkett's in some great form but how long will it carry on?

Honestly, the lads averaging considerably over 30 seem to be hopeless. NO swing, little seam, no reverse, ok-ish pace...I dunno. Where are the Goughs and Flintoffs?
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Old 20th July 2017, 11:02   #17
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Looks like the recent current test series is proving my point: without the old guard of Jimmy and Broad, the new stock just isn't that good.

Wood is likely going to be dropped but who can be picked instead? Jones? Curran?
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Old 20th July 2017, 11:22   #18
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Woakes when fit. Looks as if TRJ may get a chance at the Oval, if not Wood.
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:27   #19
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Woakes when fit. Looks as if TRJ may get a chance at the Oval, if not Wood.
Yes, I think they'll leave Wood out at the Oval in anticipation of a quicker pitch at Old Trafford.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 16:04   #20
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Woakes when fit. Looks as if TRJ may get a chance at the Oval, if not Wood.
Yeah I guess Wakes is an ok pick but he isn't fit, not that I know of anyway.
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