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Old 27th June 2008, 17:26   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
I think it is self-defeating to pick a player you don't think is very good just because he got some good stats in a couple of his games and his overall record isn't terrible.
I would agree. That is not the case here though, is it? His overall record is rather good. There is also a distinct lack of plausible alternatives in the spinning role, hence you having to suggest a rather eccentric solution to the problem of how to ride your hobby horse out of the team.

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Team selection should be on the basis of the team to win the next game, not the last game.
I would again agree but that doesn't mean you can disregard a player's record based on nothing more than a hunch. Of course, with small data sets you ought not to get too carried away but economy over a few games ought to be a reasonably stable predictor of future economy. I doubt I can be bothered to look at 10 spinners' records from say first 10 ODIs then final record to confirm that though.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:27   #42
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I knew there was a Gloucestershire bias, the very anthema of a fair and balancedTM poster such as my good self
There is a Gloucs bias, it's called Mr Popodopolous.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:30   #43
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An interesting thread, however, it seems to have been sidetracked into a 'Swann's ok thread'. Swann is ok, but ok don't win no cups. Is Samit Patel going to be a good enough player to provide us with the options outlined by GBG? If so then when should he be blooded?
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:33   #44
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OK, but Swann hasn't (fortunately, IMHO) played sufficiently often for it to be considered a big enough sample size. I'd also point out that his captains haven't trusted him to bowl his full quota of overs on a number of occasions. A damning indictment for a supposed specialist bowler.
That's rather an interesting factoid, I suppose. It's happened 4 times in the 10 games since his recall, which isn't itself all that impressive a criticism but the fact that he's only bowled 3, 2, 5 and 4 overs in those games is rather more worrying. Probably those innings only lasted about 30 overs in total though, as we are talking about England (and I don't mean we bowled them out). Yep: Wellington, 30 overs bowled; Hamilton 36; Birmingham 23; Bristol 50 overs but 4-0-10-1 for Swann there so he hardly disgraced himself (Collingwood bowled a full 10 and Wright 6 on a so called three paced wicket).

Any more oddities for me to debunk?
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:34   #45
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When I say a Gloucs bias I don't mean a pro one, namely your quote about statistics for everything but Jon Lewis.

I know what you meant. I was mocking your pro Gloucs bias by mentioning him.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:35   #46
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Swann has done quite well really, good economy chips in where possible with the bat.

As they say, if it is not broke, do not fix it.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:39   #47
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That's rather an interesting factoid, I suppose. It's happened 4 times in the 10 games since his recall, which isn't itself all that impressive a criticism but the fact that he's only bowled 3, 2, 5 and 4 overs in those games is rather more worrying. Probably those innings only lasted about 30 overs in total though, as we are talking about England (and I don't mean we bowled them out). Yep: Wellington, 30 overs bowled; Hamilton 36; Birmingham 23; Bristol 50 overs but 4-0-10-1 for Swann there so he hardly disgraced himself (Collingwood bowled a full 10 and Wright 6 on a so called three paced wicket).

Any more oddities for me to debunk?
In all fairness, when it comes to the scores on the wickets, Birmingham was at about 7 an over and was only 24 overs per side, at Hamilton England were rocketing along pre rain, Wellington we scored 130 in 49 overs yet NZ knocked it off in 30 overs. Swann has done well and it was called a 3 paced wicket by none other than Vettori.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:44   #48
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Swann has done quite well really, good economy chips in where possible with the bat.

As they say, if it is not broke, do not fix it.
But it is broke, we're losing series by the bucket load.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:48   #49
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In all fairness, when it comes to the scores on the wickets, Birmingham was at about 7 an over and was only 24 overs per side, at Hamilton England were rocketing along pre rain, Wellington we scored 130 in 49 overs yet NZ knocked it off in 30 overs. Swann has done well and it was called a 3 paced wicket by none other than Vettori.
Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying. It was completely understandable that Swann didn't bowl his full quota in those games, especially the one that was reduced overs. The games in NZ finished early because the England attack got smeared all over the frigging place and as spinners don't bowl with the new ball, we'd not expect him to have bowled many of the first 30 or 36 overs.

NB, it's not as simple as blaming Swann for England losing the series he's played in, if that's what you're doing. In fact, the current series isn't lost and the Sri Lanka one was won. Even if your point were true, there are X other players in the XI.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:48   #50
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But it is broke, we're losing series by the bucket load.
We've got a mixed and inconsistent ODI record under Moores and Collingwood:
C
1-2 vs WI
4-3 vs India
3-2 vs Sri Lanka
1-3 in NZ
Currently 1-2 down to NZ

We seem to beat the better sides in this record and lose to the sides you may expect us to beat. Strange world.

It could in all probability culminate with a loss at home to NZ but then an ODI Series win vs South Africa.
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Old 27th June 2008, 17:59   #51
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NB, it's not as simple as blaming Swann for England losing the series he's played in, if that's what you're doing.
Of course I'm not, as you well know, but along with GBG I am looking at ways to improve the team. This means a wicket taking 4th bowler, rather than a holding 10 overs. If we have a spinner to do this then they're straight in. We don't, so bring in a wicket taking 4th seamer. If this is Freddy and he's fit, a decent spinner such as Swann can stay as he can bat, and Freddy's got runs in him too. If Freddy's not fit then we may need to look at a batsman who bowls some decent spin. The question is, is Samit our man? Could someone who has seen more of him than I please answer?
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Old 27th June 2008, 18:00   #52
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I would agree. That is not the case here though, is it? His overall record is rather good. There is also a distinct lack of plausible alternatives in the spinning role, hence you having to suggest a rather eccentric solution to the problem of how to ride your hobby horse out of the team.
I regret having mentioned Swann in this thread. Discarding him isn't dependent upon Samit Patel, I'd be perfectly comfortable upgrading Swann with a better bowler and cricketer, rather than restricting myself to a better spin bowler.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if your spinner isn't a good enough spinner, you don't play one. You instead play a better seamer.

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I would again agree but that doesn't mean you can disregard a player's record based on nothing more than a hunch. Of course, with small data sets you ought not to get too carried away but economy over a few games ought to be a reasonably stable predictor of future economy. I doubt I can be bothered to look at 10 spinners' records from say first 10 ODIs then final record to confirm that though.
You'd need to compare him to all bowlers, not just spinners.

I'm also not comfortable with projecting a good career economy rate when the games he has played in have been predominantly low-scoring games with a disproportionate number of scores under 200.
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Old 27th June 2008, 18:47   #53
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I would again agree but that doesn't mean you can disregard a player's record based on nothing more than a hunch. Of course, with small data sets you ought not to get too carried away but economy over a few games ought to be a reasonably stable predictor of future economy. I doubt I can be bothered to look at 10 spinners' records from say first 10 ODIs then final record to confirm that though.
After 10 ODIs
12 wickets at 29.50 econ 4.48 s/r 39.50 - Swann
7 wickets at 43.14 econ 5.37 s/r 48.10 - Vettori
7 wickets at 55.85 econ 5.06 s/r 66.10 - Hogg
13 wickets at 29.00 econ 4.38 s/r 39.60 - Harbhajan
9 wickets at 44.11 econ 4.17 s/r 63.30 - Kumble
9 wickets at 47.55 econ 4.55 s/r 52.60 - Kartik
9 wickets at 36.77 econ 4.13 s/r 53.30 - Murali
6 wickets at 56.00 econ 4.94 s/r 68.00 - Botha
9 wickets at 42.44 econ 4.22 s/r 60.20 - Kaneria
4 wickets at 55.50 econ 4.50 s/r 74.00 - Gayle
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Old 28th June 2008, 07:49   #54
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Why does it need to be filled by someone who is paid by their county to spin the ball?

If England had a Gayle or a Jayasuriya are you really saying you wouldn't play them?

England should try and develop such a player. As for Swann, he was already in my bad books for the worse fielding display I've ever witnessed (I'm including park cricket) out in Sri Lanka and has done little to change my opinion of him. Choking last night certainly didn't help.
You're talking rubbish.
Swann bowled very well and took 3/49 very acceptable figures, he also should have had the final wicket but for a drop. One poor bit of fielding and you want him banned for life? Grow up, Shah dropped a sitter when Styris was on 0, THAT cost us the match, shall we drop him for life?

You are also suggesting a player who is no more than a parttime spinner in the counties be used as our main spinner in international cricket! We already have part timers making up 10 overs of each innings, we don't need them to be making up 20.
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Old 28th June 2008, 07:55   #55
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Zimbabwe were a half decent one-day outfit. They were reliant on a couple of stars and a lot of bits of pieces cricketers who scrapped for everything and were generally excellent fielders.

I think it is a fair comparison.
WUM

The Kiwis have dominated us this series apart from 1 match, if they are Zimbabwe then what the **** are we?

Engage your brain for once.
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Old 28th June 2008, 08:01   #56
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But it is broke, we're losing series by the bucket load.
That we are, but i'd say that's more born out of us using openers who can't bat, keepers that can't keep and our key pace bowler leaking runs all the time.
Swann on the other hand has been one of our more consistent performers of late.
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Old 28th June 2008, 13:48   #57
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WUM

The Kiwis have dominated us this series apart from 1 match, if they are Zimbabwe then what the **** are we?

Engage your brain for once.
Maybe you should engage your brain first.

How the hell have NZ been dominating us from the position of 75-6?

The last game they won by one wicket off the final ball. They have not dominated this series. They have edged England twice in games that England had plenty of opportunities to win. Edged, not dominated.

Zimbabwe were a competitive one-day outfit, who would struggle to dominate teams, but would scrap and stay in matches and sneak home, much like the Kiwis have done this series.

Have a look at the 96/97 series before showing yourself up.
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Old 28th June 2008, 14:01   #58
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WUM

The Kiwis have dominated us this series apart from 1 match, if they are Zimbabwe then what the **** are we?

Engage your brain for once.
not better than Kenya i would say.
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Old 28th June 2008, 14:33   #59
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Zimbabwe were a competitive one-day outfit, who would struggle to dominate teams, but would scrap and stay in matches and sneak home, much like the Kiwis have done this series.
I think comparing us to Zimbabwe is a bit beyond the pale to be honest GBG. After all we have been a very good ODI outfit over the last 10 or so years making a couple of World Cup semi finals, something England, let alone Zimbabwe, were unable to achieve. Whilst we haven't been as successful at tests, we have still been considerably better than the likes of Zimbabwe even when they were at full strength.

To just lump us in with a team like Zimbabwe, especially as they are now, is quite honestly a bit of an insult to the NZ cricket team and I think you should really do your research a bit more before throwing those sorts of unfounded comparisons around.

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Old 28th June 2008, 14:40   #60
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It's a fairly simple and very apposite comparison. The comparison is the Zimbabwe team at it's best vintage - both Flowers, Goodwin, Campbell, etc. and the current New Zealand team after retirements and the BCCI have reduced them to rather a lesser side than they have been for the past 10 years.

A decent side would have a decent game with them, but beat them. The fact that England aren't (and didn't vs Zim) is evidence that we aren't a decent side either. The question we are posing is how do we fiddle with the team to improve it.
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