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Old 1st August 2017, 11:15   #541
billyguntheballs
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Who should be playing that currently isnt then?
It's not just about changing who is or is not in the team, it's about the lack of mental fortitude and physical application required to play a long, ugly, dig in deep test innings. There are too few guys in world cricket who have that ability. Ali from Pakistan does, Cook from England has shown glimpses of what he once had, we all know a prime Amla could do it but beyond that I'm dr awing a blank. Asad Shafiq has not played such an innings in a long, long time, not since Australia that is.

That's the point I've made across various posts. I think England would benefit with having a batsman like Ali in the top 5, which will help him change his mindset and play better test innings, because he certainly has the skill set to do so. Root also has to start developing that part of his game.

As for SA, I don't know what to say as they can't really change their squad all that much.
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Old 1st August 2017, 11:54   #542
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...and that Mo hat trick is one of the best moments ever to happen on a cricket field. First hat trick for an English spinner for about 80 years. FANTASTIC. ...
A not altogether unexpected piece of hyperbole, I suppose.

Hat tricks are usually achieved with the help of some ineptitude from one batsman and sometimes two, as was the case with Ali's.

Good victory, though, and great to see such a battling innings from Elgar, the real highlight of the match.
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Old 1st August 2017, 14:04   #543
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All this batting ineptitude has helped Moeen have an astonishing average so far this series. Napoleon's theory of always selecting his "lucky" generals did have a lot going for it.
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Old 1st August 2017, 15:57   #544
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All this batting ineptitude has helped Moeen have an astonishing average so far this series. Napoleon's theory of always selecting his "lucky" generals did have a lot going for it.
Being fair so many left handers means their batting is made for a right arm finger spinner. Moeen has half a dozen decent players he has got out in half or more the innings he has bowled at them and nearly all are left handers.
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Old 1st August 2017, 17:28   #545
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Being fair so many left handers means their batting is made for a right arm finger spinner. Moeen has half a dozen decent players he has got out in half or more the innings he has bowled at them and nearly all are left handers.
So like Swann then?
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Old 1st August 2017, 17:32   #546
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I could easily see the West Indies taking a test off of England.
I'd be pretty surprised. They're fairly abject these days, certainly away from home. I'd like them not to be but have low expectations.
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Old 1st August 2017, 18:03   #547
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I'd be pretty surprised. They're fairly abject these days, certainly away from home. I'd like them not to be but have low expectations.
They are starting to patch things up between themselves and the board which bodes well, although seemingly too late for their superstars to be involved in the test series.

I know they've been largely abysmal away from home for over a decade but they took a test off Pakistan in UAE late last year, which is about as tough a place to win in as there is test cricket.

I think they're likely to crumble in at least one test, but I also think they have the ability (Gabriel, Roach, Brathwaite, Chase) to get ahead of England in one test. I will then be fascinated how this England team responds to that adversity. I think it's 50:50 whether England then counter-attack and wrestle back the initiative or crumble.

For my money South Africa in the West Indies would be a really good series, much like when SA toured NZ or if Australia had the balls to have toured Bangladesh.
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Old 1st August 2017, 21:44   #548
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so we're back to win-lose-win-lose after the India aberration then?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 23:43   #549
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They are starting to patch things up between themselves and the board which bodes well, although seemingly too late for their superstars to be involved in the test series.

I know they've been largely abysmal away from home for over a decade but they took a test off Pakistan in UAE late last year, which is about as tough a place to win in as there is test cricket.

I think they're likely to crumble in at least one test, but I also think they have the ability (Gabriel, Roach, Brathwaite, Chase) to get ahead of England in one test. I will then be fascinated how this England team responds to that adversity. I think it's 50:50 whether England then counter-attack and wrestle back the initiative or crumble.

For my money South Africa in the West Indies would be a really good series, much like when SA toured NZ or if Australia had the balls to have toured Bangladesh.
I think the criticism of England for having two or three passengers in the side a lot of the time recently is fair but the WI side is pretty much mostly passengers. None of Gabriel, Roach, Brathwaite and Chase is any better than adequate at test level, apart maybe from Chase, who has done well in his 10 tests so far, and they're the good players in the side.

I'd like to be wrong but I think even England will be good enough to sweep WI aside.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 12:16   #550
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I think the criticism of England for having two or three passengers in the side a lot of the time recently is fair but the WI side is pretty much mostly passengers. None of Gabriel, Roach, Brathwaite and Chase is any better than adequate at test level, apart maybe from Chase, who has done well in his 10 tests so far, and they're the good players in the side.

I'd like to be wrong but I think even England will be good enough to sweep WI aside.
I don't disagree with the first sentence.

The thing is with England having so many unreliable players - plus a couple of passengers - is that they are very prone to below par totals. The likes of Gabriel and Roach might not be world beaters but are capable of getting England in trouble if they win the toss in helpful conditions.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 12:37   #551
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The thing is with England having so many unreliable players - plus a couple of passengers - is that they are very prone to below par totals. The likes of Gabriel and Roach might not be world beaters but are capable of getting England in trouble if they win the toss in helpful conditions.
Basically if only one of Cook, Root, Baristow, Stokes & Ali makes a fifty in any given innings the chances are that no one else will, therefore we'll be out for not much more than 200. Hopefully Westley can build on his encouraging debut and help resolve that issue.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 12:53   #552
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It's not just about changing who is or is not in the team, it's about the lack of mental fortitude and physical application required to play a long, ugly, dig in deep test innings. There are too few guys in world cricket who have that ability. Ali from Pakistan does, Cook from England has shown glimpses of what he once had, we all know a prime Amla could do it but beyond that I'm dr awing a blank. Asad Shafiq has not played such an innings in a long, long time, not since Australia that is.
Kane Williamson has done this a number of times. On dayboo vs. India, in saving a Test vs. South Africa at the Basin, and in saving and then winning the Basin Test against Sri Lanka. The one against South Africa in particular was an ugly, grindy horror of an innings.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 17:33   #553
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Kane Williamson has done this a number of times. On dayboo vs. India, in saving a Test vs. South Africa at the Basin, and in saving and then winning the Basin Test against Sri Lanka. The one against South Africa in particular was an ugly, grindy horror of an innings.
Oh look ,Williamson can certainly do it, as can any number of batsmen but I was merely mentioning the guys who do it more consistently and have the grinding mindset and technique for it. As good as Williamson is, he isn't exactly Khan, Amla, Ali, Dravid or a prime Cook when it comes to those types of innings.

Although that debut century says it all. He really had to work hard and he batted for a long time, agains ta series of tough if not exactly superstar spinners. Williamson may be the best bet from the modern batsmen of being the type of batsman I'm talking about.
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Old 7th August 2017, 08:09   #554
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Williamson is a better batsman than Cook or Ali, I'd say pretty equal to them defensively as well as superior in shot making. They face pretty similar numbers of balls per innings, Ali the most but you'd have to accord for the UAE factor facilitating some extremely long innings.
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Old 25th August 2017, 16:33   #555
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I don't disagree with the first sentence.

The thing is with England having so many unreliable players - plus a couple of passengers - is that they are very prone to below par totals. The likes of Gabriel and Roach might not be world beaters but are capable of getting England in trouble if they win the toss in helpful conditions.
Or of course if England opt to bat in helpful conditions.
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Old 25th August 2017, 20:56   #556
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I think the criticism of England for having two or three passengers in the side a lot of the time recently is fair but the WI side is pretty much mostly passengers. None of Gabriel, Roach, Brathwaite and Chase is any better than adequate at test level, apart maybe from Chase, who has done well in his 10 tests so far, and they're the good players in the side.

I'd like to be wrong but I think even England will be good enough to sweep WI aside.
I don't think it was way below par, I'd say 300 would have been a reasonable effort on that wicket. The problem remains we always end up 100 for 4. Hope West Indies post a decent score as it'll be interesting to see how England cope under a bit of pressure.
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Old 31st August 2017, 01:27   #557
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Or of course if England opt to bat in helpful conditions.
I was thinking of how prescient your comments now appear. Am still very surprised England lost, ironically after doing what you said they'd need to and getting out of trouble (albeit in the second innings rather than the lower order bailing them out heroically first innings) then still lost anyway.
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Old 31st August 2017, 08:35   #558
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I was thinking of how prescient your comments now appear. Am still very surprised England lost, ironically after doing what you said they'd need to and getting out of trouble (albeit in the second innings rather than the lower order bailing them out heroically first innings) then still lost anyway.
Batted themselves out of trouble in the second innings only to dump themselves back in it with an unnecessary declaration.

Root will never declare early again, nor should he. Hopefully he will learn to base decisions on the game in hand and not the opinions of aging commentators who retired when cricket was a very different game.
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Old 31st August 2017, 09:30   #559
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Batted themselves out of trouble in the second innings only to dump themselves back in it with an unnecessary declaration.

Root will never declare early again, nor should he. Hopefully he will learn to base decisions on the game in hand and not the opinions of aging commentators who retired when cricket was a very different game.
Wasn't there an instruction from the ECB at the start of the season to play more entertaining cricket?

Of course, nothing under the sun is really new about cricket. Back in 1959/60, England were winning a series in the Caribbean with the final Test petering out into a draw. The England manager Walter Robins approached acting skipper Colin Cowdrey to insist he make a sporting declaration to 'make a game of it'. Cowdrey flatly refused on the grounds that the players had battled their guts out on that tour and weren't about to throw it all away. A declaration was eventually forthcoming, but only after the game had been made totally safe.
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Old 31st August 2017, 11:16   #560
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Batted themselves out of trouble in the second innings only to dump themselves back in it with an unnecessary declaration.

Root will never declare early again, nor should he. Hopefully he will learn to base decisions on the game in hand and not the opinions of aging commentators who retired when cricket was a very different game.
Disagree both with the thought that Root based his declaration on anything other than match state and that it was a bad decision. Of course it increased the risk of defeat significantly but it increased the chance of winning more. I wouldn't have advocated it 1-0 up without another test to play but with a third test still to come you aim for 2-0 and a definite series win. Avoiding defeat in test and series is far too conservative a safety first approach to my mind.

I do think they missed a trick in not batting more aggressively in the few overs before the declaration though: clearly 8 down you can't go T20 for long but they could have aimed for 10-15 more by the time they pulled the plug.
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