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Old 3rd July 2017, 13:46   #61
luckyluke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Think the selection of Dawson indicates Moeen will bat at 5 and the pretence he is a serious test bowler has been finally put to rest. They've tried to shoehorn him in as a front line spin bowler, all rounder and even opener - if this doesn't work out then perhaps he could keep ?
inside info that he's 1st name on the team sheet until you have a coronary
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Old 3rd July 2017, 13:50   #62
JRC67
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Think the selection of Dawson indicates Moeen will bat at 5 and the pretence he is a serious test bowler has been finally put to rest. They've tried to shoehorn him in as a front line spin bowler, all rounder and even opener - if this doesn't work out then perhaps he could keep ?
At the moment. The big unknown is if Stokes is going to be able to bowl. If he isn't they may well go 3 seamers and a spinner with Ali back at 7 as the 5th bowler. I certainly think Stokes' days of bowling quickly may be over but maybe he can follow the Kallis route and carry on bowling around 80 mph.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 14:21   #63
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Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I guess they feel Rashid is just not good enough so they've moved on. Tough on him, as he appeared to have progressed in Asia but he's not really impressed in the ODIs or first class this year. Dawson offers some control at least.

Plunkett has all but retired from the longer format, so don't think he was ever in the running.
Really? Rashid has 19 wickets and 12 games at 26 with a five for to boot. Not sure who has bowled better for England?

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Originally Posted by mustardcharlie View Post
I had the same thought. Is that Roland-Jones?
Of coursei t is, why would it be Dean Jones? And before you get started, no, I'm not going to be typing a doubel barreled surname.

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I've made up my mind.

Cook
Jennings
Ballance
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Moeen
Wood
Broad
Anderson

Just don't get Adil to carry the drinks 'cos he's better than that.
Dunno why ALi, a better technical batsman is batting below Stokes and Buttler? Or why Root should leave his number 3 spot?

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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Think the selection of Dawson indicates Moeen will bat at 5 and the pretence he is a serious test bowler has been finally put to rest. They've tried to shoehorn him in as a front line spin bowler, all rounder and even opener - if this doesn't work out then perhaps he could keep ?
I agree, ALi is not a test bowler (can be a bit part time) but you are seriously underestimating hs batting. Sound technique, beautiful, classical stroke play and better in the middle order than Stokes or Buttler at this point.

Don't see why you're so down on his batting?
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Old 3rd July 2017, 16:29   #64
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At the moment. The big unknown is if Stokes is going to be able to bowl. If he isn't they may well go 3 seamers and a spinner with Ali back at 7 as the 5th bowler. I certainly think Stokes' days of bowling quickly may be over but maybe he can follow the Kallis route and carry on bowling around 80 mph.
I'm not sure that Stokes's bowling, or lack of it, would affect the selection of the XI from this XII. If it's Dawson and three good quicks at 8--11 then that can be the bowling attack whether or not they're supplemented by part-timers. Really the main reason why Stokes used to have to bowl was because we didn't pick a reliable holding spinner. Once we do, four bowlers should be enough. Anyway, Stokes bowled in his last match for England, and then in a four-day match for Durham ending 29 June, and I don't know of any injuries incurred since then.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 18:35   #65
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I'm not sure that Stokes's bowling, or lack of it, would affect the selection of the XI from this XII. If it's Dawson and three good quicks at 8--11 then that can be the bowling attack whether or not they're supplemented by part-timers. Really the main reason why Stokes used to have to bowl was because we didn't pick a reliable holding spinner. Once we do, four bowlers should be enough. Anyway, Stokes bowled in his last match for England, and then in a four-day match for Durham ending 29 June, and I don't know of any injuries incurred since then.
All teams with only 4 frontline bowlers tuck a part-timer in their batting lineup. There's nowhere to go if a seamer breaks down or one bowler just loses it. Australia have tied themselves in knots over trying to get one in during recent years. India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh always have a quarter decent spinner somewhere in the batting lineup (often a couple). Historically the Aussies always had players like the Waughs to turn to, so it seems odd they've struggled for a few years to find someone. It might explain why they get so many injuries to their frontline seamers. J P Duminy owes his career to it (as does Ali to a large degree).

The problem Australia currently have is the likes of Maxwell and Mitch Marsh just aren't proving good enough to hold on to a place as a batsman (neither is good enough to be a frontline bowler). Shane Watson did it quite well, but they wouldn't have kept going with him as a batsman with his overall batting average if he wasn't good for about 10 overs an innings.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 18:49   #66
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All teams with only 4 frontline bowlers tuck a part-timer in their batting lineup. There's nowhere to go if a seamer breaks down or one bowler just loses it. Australia have tied themselves in knots over trying to get one in during recent years. India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh always have a quarter decent spinner somewhere in the batting lineup (often a couple). Historically the Aussies always had players like the Waughs to turn to, so it seems odd they've struggled for a few years to find someone. It might explain why they get so many injuries to their frontline seamers. J P Duminy owes his career to it (as does Ali to a large degree).

The problem Australia currently have is the likes of Maxwell and Mitch Marsh just aren't proving good enough to hold on to a place as a batsman (neither is good enough to be a frontline bowler). Shane Watson did it quite well, but they wouldn't have kept going with him as a batsman with his overall batting average if he wasn't good for about 10 overs an innings.
England have managed with Trott and before him Collingwood. As I said, I don't see any reason to suppose that Stokes won't be fit to bowl; but if he isn't, there's still Jennings (probably better than Trott) plus Ali and Root, not to mention Ballance. Australia should just pick their best top six.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 20:58   #67
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England have managed with Trott and before him Collingwood. As I said, I don't see any reason to suppose that Stokes won't be fit to bowl; but if he isn't, there's still Jennings (probably better than Trott) plus Ali and Root, not to mention Ballance. Australia should just pick their best top six.
How often were either of them the 5th bowler? When Flintoff played we normally had 5 bowlers, KP was an off spinner who batted until he was about 20 and Bopara and Patel were used as a 5th bowling option quite often during Trott's time in the team. Collingwood was good enough as a bowler to be a county all rounder and was good enough to do the role, although he did it quite rarely.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 21:13   #68
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Trott averaged about 2 overs a match, Colly just under 5, and took 22 wickets in 120 matches between them. Not sure either were genuine 5th bowlers.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 21:17   #69
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Always felt Colly could've been bowled more as well as Bopara (more so in ODIs).
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Old 3rd July 2017, 21:40   #70
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Always felt Colly could've been bowled more as well as Bopara (more so in ODIs).
Maybe, although he was pretty innocuous in tests whereas at least in ODIs he was a useful middle overs option.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 21:47   #71
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Of coursei t is, why would it be Dean Jones? And before you get started, no, I'm not going to be typing a doubel barreled surname.
It is his name. How would you like it if we just called you balls?
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Old 3rd July 2017, 22:01   #72
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Maybe, although he was pretty innocuous in tests whereas at least in ODIs he was a useful middle overs option.
I think you want your 5th bowler to be either someone who takes wickets now and again or can bowl 7 or 8 overs cheaply. Ideally both .... but then they wouldn't be a 5th bowler in a 4 man attack.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 22:15   #73
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I think you want your 5th bowler to be either someone who takes wickets now and again or can bowl 7 or 8 overs cheaply. Ideally both .... but then they wouldn't be a 5th bowler in a 4 man attack.
Well circumstances dictate your weapons. Big difference between a four man attack plus a Collingwood or Ponting and five bowlers through having a Flintoff or Kallis.
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Old 3rd July 2017, 22:26   #74
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Well circumstances dictate your weapons. Big difference between a four man attack plus a Collingwood or Ponting and five bowlers through having a Flintoff or Kallis.
That's why Stokes is worth so much in the IPL.
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Old 4th July 2017, 08:23   #75
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Faf out of the first test for family reasons. CWOTV convinced this was a strong and stable South African side. I'm less convinced, I think they still have issues up top and in the middle order, plus with Abbott and Steyn gone, their bowling is less frightening than it could otherwise be.
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Old 4th July 2017, 09:44   #76
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The Times have the "exclusive" that Dawson has got the nod for the spinner role - with Crane lined up for later in the summer.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/s...ords-mftppgj20

"it now looks as though Middlesex’s Toby Roland-Jones will miss out on a Test debut on his home ground and that England will use Dawson in a role similar to that of Ashley Giles"

"The omission of Rashid from the squad indicates that England see him as a one-day spinner, but the inclusion of Dawson in the final XI would also say much about Ali’s standing"

"England will probably include Mason Crane, Dawson’s Hampshire colleague and leg spinner, in a Test this summer as they do not want to take any uncapped players to the Ashes."

Probably confirms the team as

Cook
Jennings
Root (or 4)
Ballance (or 3)
Ali (or 7)
Stokes
Bairstow (or 5)
Dawson
Broad
Wood
Anderson
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:21   #77
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It might even be

Cook Jennings Dawson Root Ballance Stokes Bairstow Ali Broad Wood Anderson
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:23   #78
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It might even be

Cook Jennings Dawson Root Ballance Stokes Bairstow Ali Broad Wood Anderson
Not sure even they would want to humilate Ali that much - his confidence with the ball is shot (see ODI vs Oz) - what would that batting order say about their opinion of his batting ?

He has to bat at 5 really and justify his place with runs.
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:37   #79
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Not sure even they would want to humilate Ali that much - his confidence with the ball is shot (see ODI vs Oz) - what would that batting order say about their opinion of his batting ?
It would say he is our main spinner. Dawson opened the batting for Hants in their last game. Whitaker was saying Ballance should do well in the middle order.
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Old 4th July 2017, 10:56   #80
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It would say he is our main spinner. Dawson opened the batting for Hants in their last game. Whitaker was saying Ballance should do well in the middle order.
It would - but Atherton suggests that is no longer the case.
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