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Old 14th July 2017, 16:10   #41
blackeyedangles
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Yes, on the basis of one test let's chop and change again. I'm a bit worried about this Y2K bug
Perhaps I should have said "Would have picked"; you're right that it seems unfair to drop Dawson now
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Old 14th July 2017, 17:37   #42
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Both have relied on control and movement over pace in recent times. Yes, they could reach the nineties in times gone by but those who bowl that fast for extended periods don't have lengthy Test careers. Look at Mitch Johnson and Dale Steyn.
He's had his injury problems of late but 417 wickets from 85 tests is hardly a curtailed career for Steyn.

Also wasn't the reason Mitch missed so many tests more down to problems with his form rather than injury?
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Old 15th July 2017, 02:09   #43
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He's had his injury problems of late but 417 wickets from 85 tests is hardly a curtailed career for Steyn.

Also wasn't the reason Mitch missed so many tests more down to problems with his form rather than injury?
yes with mitch

no with steyn, simply because as successful as he has been in tests, his odi career never got going and a lot of that ahd to do with him suffering injruies and being rested for long periods
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Old 15th July 2017, 12:43   #44
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yes with mitch

no with steyn, simply because as successful as he has been in tests, his odi career never got going and a lot of that ahd to do with him suffering injruies and being rested for long periods
Please refer to NE's original post and the phrase
Quote:
but those who bowl that fast for extended periods don't have lengthy Test careers
to which I was responding.

Steyn had a few gos at establishing him in ODIs but wasn't that successful. I'm not sure it was all to do with injuries, more so that he wasn't particularly effective in the format.
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Old 15th July 2017, 17:30   #45
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Please refer to NE's original post and the phrase to which I was responding.

Steyn had a few gos at establishing him in ODIs but wasn't that successful. I'm not sure it was all to do with injuries, more so that he wasn't particularly effective in the format.
I was replying to you saying steyns career wasn't curtailed. I think it was. A large part of the reason given by the sA staff for not playing odis was because they wanted to keep him injury free for tests.

Injuries certainly limited what he could do.

Its why wasim, waqar and mcgrath are rated so highly. They had great careers across formats. But that's a different story.
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Old 16th July 2017, 19:27   #46
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I was replying to you saying steyns career wasn't curtailed. I think it was. A large part of the reason given by the sA staff for not playing odis was because they wanted to keep him injury free for tests.

Injuries certainly limited what he could do.

Its why wasim, waqar and mcgrath are rated so highly. They had great careers across formats. But that's a different story.
Bit odd to advance an argument that missing ODIs in order to play a very decent number of tests supports the assertion that Steyn's test career was curtailed. He's certainly missed a lot of ODI cricket to favour playing tests but he's therefore played enough test cricket to be one of the greatest test bowlers ever (ave 22.3 at SR 41.4).

You're also both slightly diminishing Steyn's actually perfectly decent ODI record. No, he's not nearly as good in the format as he is in tests but averaging 26.6 at an economy just under 5s is certainly good, even if it's not great. Also, because of the way he's been saved for the bigger games, he's played disproportionately often against better sides, especially Australia, with 24 of his 116 games and India with 18 of them.
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Old 16th July 2017, 21:27   #47
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Bit odd to advance an argument that missing ODIs in order to play a very decent number of tests supports the assertion that Steyn's test career was curtailed. He's certainly missed a lot of ODI cricket to favour playing tests but he's therefore played enough test cricket to be one of the greatest test bowlers ever (ave 22.3 at SR 41.4).

You're also both slightly diminishing Steyn's actually perfectly decent ODI record. No, he's not nearly as good in the format as he is in tests but averaging 26.6 at an economy just under 5s is certainly good, even if it's not great. Also, because of the way he's been saved for the bigger games, he's played disproportionately often against better sides, especially Australia, with 24 of his 116 games and India with 18 of them.
Oh, Steyn had a long and successful test career but the talk was of careers in total ,not just in terms of one format.

WIth regards to his ODI careers, it is pretty good but I'm talking about greatness here. Akram had 250 games against the better sides of his day (Aus, Ind, Eng, SL and SA).

To simply state "oh he has average of 27" without the context of how many games played, across how many different surfaces and over how long a period is not looking at a full career.

Anyway, all of this is besides the point of the thread.
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Old 16th July 2017, 22:15   #48
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Oh, Steyn had a long and successful test career but the talk was of careers in total ,not just in terms of one format.

WIth regards to his ODI careers, it is pretty good but I'm talking about greatness here. Akram had 250 games against the better sides of his day (Aus, Ind, Eng, SL and SA).

To simply state "oh he has average of 27" without the context of how many games played, across how many different surfaces and over how long a period is not looking at a full career.

Anyway, all of this is besides the point of the thread.
Your talk was of careers in total. The others were talking abut tests. Amusing that you're talking about context for your digression when I provided more than you did. I'm sure you could use cricinfo if you wanted to flesh it out though.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:16   #49
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Your talk was of careers in total. The others were talking abut tests. Amusing that you're talking about context for your digression when I provided more than you did. I'm sure you could use cricinfo if you wanted to flesh it out though.
No need to be defensive.

Lets get back to the trhead topic anyway and if you wana carry on about Steyn, open up a relevant thread.
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Old 17th July 2017, 16:26   #50
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No need to be defensive.

Lets get back to the trhead topic anyway and if you wana carry on about Steyn, open up a relevant thread.
Not being defensive, just pointing out where you were wrong.

I think the ratings for test 1 subject is closed, although we could rate test 2. Don't suppose the England players will need any numbers higher than perhaps a 6.
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Old 17th July 2017, 21:38   #51
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South Africa
1. Elgar 6/10 - that second innings was crucial

2. Kuhn 3/10 - absolute waste of space so far in this series but at least he got double figures

3. Amla 7/10 - a dig in deep, scratchy, "old fashioned" innings

4. QDK 6/10 - a good first innings and pretty good behind the stumps too

5. Faf 7/10 - he didn't bat as well as Amla BUT he was a solid leader throughout and the best captain on show

6. Bavuma 3/10 - didn't do much

7. Philander 8/10 - for all the talk of all rounders, this was the best one on show

8. Morris 7/10 - brought some much needed spite to SAs bowling with Rabada missing

9. Maharaj 7/10 - bowled a lot better than expected and although he was gifted a couple, he was always there about

10. Morkel 6/10 - at times he wound the clock back a few years and looked like the guy who shared the ball with Steyn

11. Olivier 5/10 - he was ok and imrpoved as time went on
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Old 17th July 2017, 21:39   #52
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England ratings incoming.
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Old 17th July 2017, 22:19   #53
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In a game without any tons I think Amla worth an 8 for a 78 and 87 top scoring both times and Philander a 9 for two half centuries and 5 cheap match wickets, especially as he set the tone with the new ball both innings.
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Old 17th July 2017, 23:03   #54
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Philander definitely a 9. He was all over England when I saw him bowling, and his lower order runs in both innings were very, very annoying and outscored the bulk of the England batting order.
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Old 17th July 2017, 23:50   #55
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2. Kuhn 3/10 - absolute waste of space so far in this series but at least he got double figures
Seeing off that first session on Day 1 was a valuable performance though. There are few tougher challenges in Test cricket than opening the batting in seam friendly conditions in England.
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Old 18th July 2017, 11:52   #56
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England players with pass marks.

Root, Anderson.
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Old 18th July 2017, 17:18   #57
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Yeah, I think Philly and Amla getting higher scores from some is understandable. England scores below.
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Old 18th July 2017, 17:43   #58
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England

1. Cook - 5/10 I know he never got abig score but at least he tried to dig in and showed some test nous

2. Jennings - 0/10 I still believe he has skills and is a good long term choice but this series has been atrocious

3. Ballance - 1/10 Not a number 3

4. Root - 5/10 a good first innings but let down by a bad second act and reactive, unimaginative captaincy...impotent almost

5. Bairstow - 6/10 decent enough with the bat and very good behind the stumps, which is important if someone is a keeper

6. Stokes - 6/10 bowled the best he has in months but his batting is looking suspect at the highest test level

7. Ali - 6/10 gave away his innings in a crucial moment but 4 wickets can't be scoffed at

8. Dawson - 2/10 might need to change the squad and bring in Rashid

9. Broad - 4/10 good in the first innings, not much after that

10. Wood - 1/10 pretty much a passenger at this stage

11. Anderson - 7/10 showed all the tricks and why he is still relevant to the England test structure
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Old 18th July 2017, 23:48   #59
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Very very generous Billy.

Are you Santa ?
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Old 19th July 2017, 10:24   #60
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Very very generous Billy.

Are you Santa ?
Well we shouldn't go over board after a loss, let's call it how it was. Certain people did ok, it's just that SA played better in the crucial moments and their best bowling was better than England's best.

Oh and maybe I am Santa...
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