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Old 1st August 2017, 19:15   #81
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Nah, I'm all in favour of batting on to wind up Warne, Botham and anyone else who doesn't get time / runs equations, as long as the batsmen are actually upping the tempo. A few extra slog overs getting you 20-30 more give you some extra security when bowling. They got it horribly wrong at Rajkot but when you're going to have 130+ overs to bowl, you set them well over 450, if you can. No need to risk a QdK special putting the wind up you if you've set 420 at a run rate of 3.3
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Old 1st August 2017, 19:36   #82
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Well indeed victories are what we want to watch. But when declarations are involved, my experience, whether at the ground or watching TV and following social media, is of an impatience to get the declaration out of the way and "get on with the game". It might sometimes ignore the valid reasons for waiting. But at the test v Pak at Old Trafford last year Cook and Root batted on and on in their 2nd innings for absolutely no reason. Root had already made 250 in the 1st inns and the lead at start of play was well over 400. The bowlers weren't tired as it was a new day. It was pure self-indulgence.
With the greatest respect and from someone who myself last played at sixth form, 14 years ago, this does really sound like armchair expert nonsense. Reducing the possibility of victory for fear of upsetting twatter users is lunacy. This is test match cricket ffs. You bat longer to make the target more intimidating, keep their openers guessing, tire their bowlers, allow your batsmen to reach milestones or have some time in the middle, whatever you think benefits your team and umsettles theirs the most. I very much doubt it happened but if some suit came into the England dressing and said "Joe, I think you should declare, have you seen what's on Facebook" I hope Root kept them out for longer just to make a point.
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Old 1st August 2017, 20:33   #83
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With the greatest respect and from someone who myself last played at sixth form, 14 years ago, this does really sound like armchair expert nonsense. Reducing the possibility of victory for fear of upsetting twatter users is lunacy. This is test match cricket ffs. You bat longer to make the target more intimidating, keep their openers guessing, tire their bowlers, allow your batsmen to reach milestones or have some time in the middle, whatever you think benefits your team and umsettles theirs the most. I very much doubt it happened but if some suit came into the England dressing and said "Joe, I think you should declare, have you seen what's on Facebook" I hope Root kept them out for longer just to make a point.
I absolutely accept your reasoning in the large majority of situations where the team batting third is in a position to declare their innings. However, in this particular game there was nothing riding on England staying out any longer. As I recall, the weather had been iffy, so it would have looked very stupid if England had carried on batting and didn't have enough time to bowl Pak out because of more rain. Moreover, Pak had already had a whole heap of humiliation already - Eng declared first inns on nearly 600, Pak ao 198 1st inns and were eventually set something like 560.

As I have said a couple of times now in my posts, I fully agree with what you and Chin have said about maximising the team's chances of winning and not wanting to risk either running out of time or even being defeated. But there are occasions when the delay seems and is pointless and this is what frustrates the fans. (And of course, it's true that if something did go wrong, those same fans would then blame the captain for his rashness.....)
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Old 1st August 2017, 21:43   #84
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Root is supposed to be the new face of English cricket .He is supposed to be the type of captain England have never had. A declaration of 350 was enough, it is far too negative and shows a defeatist mentality to think you have to get 400+ otherwise your bowlers can't defend it. You probably won't understand if you're English.
With all due respect for your other opinions in this thread, which I largely agree with, this is far too negative about Root's captaincy. The overriding purpose is to win the match. From the moment he declared to the end of the match, I never had any concern about that. Should Root have declared earlier to make things a bit more exciting? This is Test cricket, where you grind the opposition into the dust if you can. As captain, Root was justified in not giving the South Africans a sniff. It's not as if he needed their batsmen to take risks in a run chase in order to be confident of setting up enough chances to bowl them out.
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Old 1st August 2017, 22:53   #85
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I absolutely accept your reasoning in the large majority of situations where the team batting third is in a position to declare their innings. However, in this particular game there was nothing riding on England staying out any longer. As I recall, the weather had been iffy, so it would have looked very stupid if England had carried on batting and didn't have enough time to bowl Pak out because of more rain. Moreover, Pak had already had a whole heap of humiliation already - Eng declared first inns on nearly 600, Pak ao 198 1st inns and were eventually set something like 560.

As I have said a couple of times now in my posts, I fully agree with what you and Chin have said about maximising the team's chances of winning and not wanting to risk either running out of time or even being defeated. But there are occasions when the delay seems and is pointless and this is what frustrates the fans. (And of course, it's true that if something did go wrong, those same fans would then blame the captain for his rashness.....)
I guess it depends upon your assessment of the relative risks. If you think the risk of not bowling them out is low (as they evidently did) why not fill your boots. Batsmen quite enjoy batting I believe.

My fundamental point is that whether the crowd get a bit frustrated or not should really be the last thing captains take into consideration about the declaration times.
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Old 1st August 2017, 22:58   #86
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Although of course the arguments being thrashed out are about leaving no possibility of an SA win or draw, will the weather hold, blah blah - all solid tactical points - the actualité is that spectators are fed up of watching the team bat on and on with no tension re wickets falling as they don't matter. Admirable as may be the exciting Stokes strokes and Bairstow boundaries, what the whole of the Oval (apart from Chin) wanted for quite a while before tea on Sunday was for Root to declare and let our bowlers loose on SA's batsmen to start the endgame.
I'm sorry that's really not quite the case. There were a few murmurs in the few overs befoe the declaration but nothing more. You only needed to look at the overs remaining part of the scoreboard to realise that there was plenty of time left. Sure I didn't think that SA would have chased say 350 but I didn't see the point in absoultely grinding down SA a little more simply because of the time left. I was sanguine about it, possibly because I was sobre, but also because I realised that England weren't going to not win the game because they were going to run out of time.

Oh and what slogger said about Rajkot and the delayed declaration there. That was a classic case of over conservatism.
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Old 1st August 2017, 23:16   #87
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I'm sorry that's really not quite the case. There were a few murmurs in the few overs befoe the declaration but nothing more. You only needed to look at the overs remaining part of the scoreboard to realise that there was plenty of time left. Sure I didn't think that SA would have chased say 350 but I didn't see the point in absoultely grinding down SA a little more simply because of the time left. I was sanguine about it, possibly because I was sobre, but also because I realised that England weren't going to not win the game because they were going to run out of time.

Oh and what slogger said about Rajkot and the delayed declaration there. That was a classic case of over conservatism.
Up in the Bedser in front of the England dressing room we were constantly scrutinising the situation within. "Oh no, Broad's got his pads on". "Here's Bayliss. Is something about to happen?". But we are the ignorant public and luckyluke is absolutely right that the spectators are most definitely not objective arbiters and our views are irrelevant. Speaking personally, I had to leave at 6 and wanted to see us bowling,
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Old 1st August 2017, 23:27   #88
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Up in the Bedser in front of the England dressing room we were constantly scrutinising the situation within. "Oh no, Broad's got his pads on". "Here's Bayliss. Is something about to happen?". But we are the ignorant public and luckyluke is absolutely right that the spectators are most definitely not objective arbiters and our views are irrelevant. Speaking personally, I had to leave at 6 and wanted to see us bowling,
In your sarcasm then your honesty you contradict yourself. Wanting England to declare because you've got dinner plans is not objective! If England took more wickets on Sunday then the crowd on Monday would've seen fewer. What makes you so special?
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Old 1st August 2017, 23:28   #89
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Old 1st August 2017, 23:51   #90
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In your sarcasm then your honesty you contradict yourself. Wanting England to declare because you've got dinner plans is not objective! If England took more wickets on Sunday then the crowd on Monday would've seen fewer. What makes you so special?
I have tried to illustrate the difference between objective reasoning and personal wishes, but clearly I have failed. I did have a train to catch but naturally I wanted what was best for the England team. I think that in general pundits (often former test players themselves) and spectators are drawn to the declaration being earlier rather than later as it's an exciting moment towards the end of a test match. But I've said enough in previous posts acknowledging Chin's and your own points and adding any more would be pointless.

|P.S. I hope you're not suggesting that the captain should delay the declaration to ensure more play on the last day, hence more spectators, and happier chief executives??? That doesn't sound like objective thinking to me.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 07:50   #91
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I have tried to illustrate the difference between objective reasoning and personal wishes, but clearly I have failed. I did have a train to catch but naturally I wanted what was best for the England team. I think that in general pundits (often former test players themselves) and spectators are drawn to the declaration being earlier rather than later as it's an exciting moment towards the end of a test match. But I've said enough in previous posts acknowledging Chin's and your own points and adding any more would be pointless.

|P.S. I hope you're not suggesting that the captain should delay the declaration to ensure more play on the last day, hence more spectators, and happier chief executives??? That doesn't sound like objective thinking to me.
The excitement of Monday was in no way reduced by a later declaration on
Sunday, and just thinking of the fans
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Old 2nd August 2017, 12:27   #92
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Although of course the arguments being thrashed out are about leaving no possibility of an SA win or draw, will the weather hold, blah blah - all solid tactical points - the actualité is that spectators are fed up of watching the team bat on and on with no tension re wickets falling as they don't matter. Admirable as may be the exciting Stokes strokes and Bairstow boundaries, what the whole of the Oval (apart from Chin) wanted for quite a while before tea on Sunday was for Root to declare and let our bowlers loose on SA's batsmen to start the endgame.
Particularly the South Africans in the ground.

ps If these are the same people moaning about over rates then I'd ignore them.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 16:44   #93
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One of the reasons I was against Root getting the captaincy was that the job might destroy his natural flair. Thankfully the batting does not seem to have deteriorated and his captaincy improved.

I was in favour of an earlier declaration. Having said that there is a lot to be said for grinding the opposition's nose into the dirt. I complain about England's lack of ruthlessness. We all complained about the cavalier approach to impending defeat at TB.

Stokes' batting has improved so much. We all know he can biff, bash and slog. but he has played responsibly this year.

Bairstow's keeping is excellent.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 13:34   #94
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With all due respect for your other opinions in this thread, which I largely agree with, this is far too negative about Root's captaincy. The overriding purpose is to win the match. From the moment he declared to the end of the match, I never had any concern about that. Should Root have declared earlier to make things a bit more exciting? This is Test cricket, where you grind the opposition into the dust if you can. As captain, Root was justified in not giving the South Africans a sniff. It's not as if he needed their batsmen to take risks in a run chase in order to be confident of setting up enough chances to bowl them out.
YOu never had any concern with England able to pull off a win (neither did I) because we know how flimsy test batting has been from SA, not because of the time or bowlers left.

We only have to go back to a handful of years with Smith, Kallis, Amla, AB all in the line up to know they could and most likley, would have ground out a draw. I don't see enough quality in Jones, Ali, Stokes and co to have taken those wickets.

That's basically the point I'm making. So, even with such a depleted batting line up, Root still did not show the balls to have a good declaration. This is very much from the school of Cook, Dhoni and Misbah. Don't get me wrong, all great captains ,especially Misbah but Root is supposed to be the new young stud. We were told England would have that killer instinct under him. In 3 tests, I haven't seen it.

On top of all that, it's not just this test. Its the fact that when Root had SA on the ropes previously, he refused to put even put in more than one slip. I can't remember which test it was but even the commentators were perplexed. This is not a good sign, especially considering he is likely to captain England against teams like Pak and Aus who have that killer instinct, especially Pak in UAE.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 13:37   #95
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One of the reasons I was against Root getting the captaincy was that the job might destroy his natural flair. Thankfully the batting does not seem to have deteriorated and his captaincy improved.

I was in favour of an earlier declaration. Having said that there is a lot to be said for grinding the opposition's nose into the dirt. I complain about England's lack of ruthlessness. We all complained about the cavalier approach to impending defeat at TB.

Stokes' batting has improved so much. We all know he can biff, bash and slog. but he has played responsibly this year.

Bairstow's keeping is excellent.
I agree that Bairstow has become so much better as a keeper than before but Stokes? He has largely looked all at sea with the beat this series. Just because he is blocking the ball doesnt mean he is more responsible I agree his century was pretty good but before that, he has looked unable to do anything beyond either block, or hit. It's like Razzaq trying to adapt to test cricket all those years ago.

Maybe the century was a turning point but he certainly hasnt been a revelation this year, with his innings against Pak in the semis being close to unwatchable.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 18:28   #96
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YOu never had any concern with England able to pull off a win (neither did I) because we know how flimsy test batting has been from SA, not because of the time or bowlers left.

We only have to go back to a handful of years with Smith, Kallis, Amla, AB all in the line up to know they could and most likley, would have ground out a draw. I don't see enough quality in Jones, Ali, Stokes and co to have taken those wickets.

That's basically the point I'm making. So, even with such a depleted batting line up, Root still did not show the balls to have a good declaration. This is very much from the school of Cook, Dhoni and Misbah. Don't get me wrong, all great captains ,especially Misbah but Root is supposed to be the new young stud. We were told England would have that killer instinct under him. In 3 tests, I haven't seen it.

On top of all that, it's not just this test. Its the fact that when Root had SA on the ropes previously, he refused to put even put in more than one slip. I can't remember which test it was but even the commentators were perplexed. This is not a good sign, especially considering he is likely to captain England against teams like Pak and Aus who have that killer instinct, especially Pak in UAE.
I think we all agree that modern captains take a more cautious approach to declarations but I'm just not sure this is best example to use. There was so much time left that the +/- on batting for longer were marginal. We won't really know how aggressive Root is until he's faced with a match situation like that Cook had at Rajkot.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 19:29   #97
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that I've felt Mo looked like a genuine offy. Drift, spin, loop...he showed everything and even when he was getting wickets, he had the batsmen wondering what would happen.

Havent seen that from an English spinner in a long time.
Easy when the oppo are 300 behind and 7 down.

Appeared to be more difficult re Trent Bridge, India, Bangla, 2016, 2015 etc.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 21:34   #98
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Easy when the oppo are 300 behind and 7 down.

Appeared to be more difficult re Trent Bridge, India, Bangla, 2016, 2015 etc.
You obviously missed his 4 fer at Trent Bridge ... and that he was leading wicket taker and spinner in Bangladesh.
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Old 3rd August 2017, 22:13   #99
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I think we all agree that modern captains take a more cautious approach to declarations but I'm just not sure this is best example to use. There was so much time left that the +/- on batting for longer were marginal. We won't really know how aggressive Root is until he's faced with a match situation like that Cook had at Rajkot.
You've saved me from having to think up a similar post.
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Old 4th August 2017, 10:52   #100
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You've saved me from having to think up a similar post.
It amazes me that people are calling for Root's head so soon. I can't imagine any of the alternatives would be any more aggressive, although perhaps Stokes would be more erratic.
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