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Old 4th August 2017, 09:52   #101
Ali TT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowest_bowler View Post
You've saved me from having to think up a similar post.
It amazes me that people are calling for Root's head so soon. I can't imagine any of the alternatives would be any more aggressive, although perhaps Stokes would be more erratic.
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Old 6th August 2017, 21:23   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I think we all agree that modern captains take a more cautious approach to declarations but I'm just not sure this is best example to use. There was so much time left that the +/- on batting for longer were marginal. We won't really know how aggressive Root is until he's faced with a match situation like that Cook had at Rajkot.
There was a day and less than a session by the time England had reached 300 something. Like I keep saying, we don't have to go too far back in time to teams like SA and Aus who would have been able to survive that long against a bowling attack like the one ENg have right now.

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It amazes me that people are calling for Root's head so soon. I can't imagine any of the alternatives would be any more aggressive, although perhaps Stokes would be more erratic.
I'm not calling for Roots had, I'm simply calling it how it is. He has a lot of improvements to make or they will get thrashed in Aus, Pak and Ind yet again.
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Old 7th August 2017, 07:41   #103
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Originally Posted by billyguntheballs View Post
There was a day and less than a session by the time England had reached 300 something. Like I keep saying, we don't have to go too far back in time to teams like SA and Aus who would have been able to survive that long against a bowling attack like the one ENg have right now.
No there wasn't. It was an extended day's play so there was an elongated evening session to come plus an extended day 5. I think they ought to have declared a few overs earlier but not many and they were scoring pretty quickly at the end (although this is an indifferent argument for continuing as they could have been going hell for leather earlier with a lower total in mind). They had a number of overs left that would have made it extremely difficult for anyone to survive and if they'd pulled out much earlier (let alone about 100 runs earlier, as you seemed to suggest at one point), they would have been losing the test if the batting side had survived the overs.

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I'm not calling for Roots had, I'm simply calling it how it is. He has a lot of improvements to make or they will get thrashed in Aus, Pak and Ind yet again.
No, you're calling it how it's not. While I think it's a bit early to be too sure one way or the other about his captaincy you're using an extremely flawed example to prove your rather dubious point.
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Old 7th August 2017, 19:21   #104
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Series ratings:

Cook 5 - a couple of tough and useful innings but again struggles against good quick bowling.
Jennings 2 - I'll give him 2 because he at least had the one start, but generally terrible. Fielding not much better. NEXT!
Ballance 2 - questionable recall, predictable result.
Westley 4 - it says a lot when a scratchy 50 is seen signs of a promising test career at 3. A long way from convincing.
Root 8 - continued his remarkably (frustrating?) consistent form. Grew as a leader during the series.
Malan 1 - stick to the short stuff.
Stokes 8 - good series with the bat, chipped in useful wickets with the ball and brilliant in the field.
Ali 10 - a stunning breakthrough series with the ball and two important contributions with the bat. The epitomy of selflessness.
Bairstow 7 - a consistent performer with bat and gloves.
Dawson 4 - got better with the ball despite not having much of a chance. Not sure where he fits in long term.
Roland-Jones 6 - super debut, even if he was a little inconsistent at OT.
Broad 6 - a quiet series, although he got better as time went on. Needs to rediscover his outswinger.
Anderson 8 - still got it in home conditions.
Wood 1 - to go the way of Finn?
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Old 7th August 2017, 19:24   #105
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Can Moeen not be turned up to 11?
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Old 7th August 2017, 19:52   #106
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Can Moeen not be turned up to 11?
I've judged him on a logarithmic scale.

RSA:
Kuhn 1 - he played the whole series!?
Elgar 7
Amla 7
De Kock 4
Du Plessis 5
Bavuma 6
Philander 8
Maharaj 8
Rabada 6
Morkel 7
Morris 5
Olivier 5
De Bruyn 1
Duminy 1
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Old 7th August 2017, 22:57   #107
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Combined team?

Cook
Elgar
Amla
Root
Stokes
Bavuma
Bairstow
Ali
Philander
Morkel
Anderson

Seems pretty obvious to me.
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Old 7th August 2017, 23:56   #108
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Combined team?

Cook
Elgar
Amla
Root
Stokes
Bavuma
Bairstow
Ali
Philander
Morkel
Anderson

Seems pretty obvious to me.
Maharaj maybe for Philander based on his performing pretty well in all 4 tests. Discounting the illness you would take Philander over him though. You could also make a case for Maharaj over Bavuma who currently looks close to a very good cricketer, rather than being a good test cricketer; where Maharaj looks a good test bowler and a developing batsman.
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Old 8th August 2017, 00:03   #109
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Maharaj maybe for Philander based on his performing pretty well in all 4 tests. Discounting the illness you would take Philander over him though. You could also make a case for Maharaj over Bavuma who currently looks close to a very good cricketer, rather than being a good test cricketer; where Maharaj looks a good test bowler and a developing batsman.
Maharaj had a good series but there's really only room for one spin bowler in the line up isn't there? Actually, I suppose if we're selecting on the actual series the side would have to be:

Elgar
Cook
Amla
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Philander
Maharaj
Morkel
Anderson

It's too much bowling but the batsmen have been poor enough that having Ali, Philander, Maharaj at 7, 8, 9 would be better than playing another specialist batsman batting wise anyway. If you were taking it more seriously and picking a side you'd really line up with, suppose Bavuma as least bad remaining batsman for Anderson.

Edit: take it back, can't possibly leave Anderson out. Bavuma can come in for Morkel or Maharaj. Not Philander, who checking the averages was SA's best bowler and best batsman.
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:45   #110
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Yeah I'd have Bavuma for Maharaj (unless you were playing at Lord's!)
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:39   #111
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Maharaj had a good series but there's really only room for one spin bowler in the line up isn't there? Actually, I suppose if we're selecting on the actual series the side would have to be:

Elgar
Cook
Amla
Root
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Philander
Maharaj
Morkel
Anderson

It's too much bowling but the batsmen have been poor enough that having Ali, Philander, Maharaj at 7, 8, 9 would be better than playing another specialist batsman batting wise anyway. If you were taking it more seriously and picking a side you'd really line up with, suppose Bavuma as least bad remaining batsman for Anderson.

Edit: take it back, can't possibly leave Anderson out. Bavuma can come in for Morkel or Maharaj. Not Philander, who checking the averages was SA's best bowler and best batsman.
Not really going to have time now or lunchtime to do a full post, but before the conclusion of this Test (and on another forum) I posted a series combined XI and it wasn't dissimilar to that, was never likely to be a sudden new contender

Didn't have both Maharaj and Ali in it though, and Rabada in for Morkel who did bowl well but I'd prefer Rabada to add the edge

Elgar
Cook
Amla
Root
Stokes
Bavuma
Bairstow
Ali
Philander
Rabada
Anderson

Pretty sure that was it, surprising to see 3 South Africans in the batting top order but we know England have hardly been piling runs on through Jennings, Ballance/Westley and Malan/Dawson so no reason their batsmen can't come into the equation.

Perhaps reflects in both my XI and your's how even the series was in terms of performers.

Despite all the wickets around for England bowlers, Broad and Stokes were a bit disappointing with Anderson, Ali and TRJ all taking their wickets at under 23 apiece. Ironically you included Maharaj whose series average was the highest of their main bowlers and double that of Ali (give or take)
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:01   #112
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In the end I was going to pull Maharaj or Morkel for Bavuma. Interestingly, all the SA bowlers had pretty similar averages: between 25 for Philander and 30 for Maharaj so I think you're probably right that Maharaj was crediatable but not inteam of the series. I think I'd overestimated his success. That he didn't have an effective final bowl of the series, getting clobbered by Ali, on by then a rather helpful track and with the seamers taking regular wickets, was very damaging to SA.

England's bowling was mostly about Ali and Anderson: 25 wickets at 15 and 20 at 14.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:37   #113
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It's odd that England hammered the South Africans in three of the four years yet the composite side is so balanced.
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:07   #114
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It's odd that England hammered the South Africans in three of the four years yet the composite side is so balanced.
Yes although this series two things really: our two successful bowlers were miles ahead of anyone else, as was our best batsman and their batting passengers were even more passengery than ours. Kuhn, Duminy and De Breyn anyone?
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Old 8th August 2017, 17:41   #115
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Calm it! The official ratings are incoming.
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Old 8th August 2017, 23:22   #116
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It's odd that England hammered the South Africans in three of the four years yet the composite side is so balanced.
Perhaps because the composite side includes Philander who really played a significant part in only one test.
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Old 9th August 2017, 15:13   #117
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Team of the Series

1. A. Cook ENG
2. D. Elgar SA
3. H. Amla SA
4. J. Root c ENG
5. J. Bairstow wk ENG
6. B. Stokes ENG
7. T. Bavuma SA
8. M. Ali ENG
9. T.R. Jones ENG
10. M. Morkel SA
11. J. Anderson ENG

Player of the Series - Moeen Ali, for his all round performance and 3 iconic moments. The 10fer in the first test, the hat-trick and the match match winning performance in the final test. The best all rounder on show.
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Old 9th August 2017, 16:24   #118
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Originally Posted by billyguntheballs View Post
1. A. Cook ENG
2. D. Elgar SA
3. H. Amla SA
4. J. Root c ENG
5. J. Bairstow wk ENG
6. B. Stokes ENG
7. T. Bavuma SA
8. M. Ali ENG
9. T.R. Jones ENG
10. M. Morkel SA
11. J. Anderson ENG

Player of the Series - Moeen Ali, for his all round performance and 3 iconic moments. The 10fer in the first test, the hat-trick and the match match winning performance in the final test. The best all rounder on show.
Much as I enjoyed Toby Roland-Jones for his performances at the Oval and even OT, it would be hard to justify his inclusion in this composite side over Philander or Maharaj. I would lean towards Maharaj at 9.
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Old 9th August 2017, 16:32   #119
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Much as I enjoyed Toby Roland-Jones for his performances at the Oval and even OT, it would be hard to justify his inclusion in this composite side over Philander or Maharaj. I would lean towards Maharaj at 9.
I agree. Also hard to explain why Bairstow is at 5 and Bavuma at 7 when Bairstow scored more runs at 7 than at 5 and Bavuma never batted as low as 7. Billy seems to have a thing about insisting on the incorrect batting order.
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Old 9th August 2017, 22:42   #120
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Much as I enjoyed Toby Roland-Jones for his performances at the Oval and even OT, it would be hard to justify his inclusion in this composite side over Philander or Maharaj. I would lean towards Maharaj at 9.
I could see Philander getting a shout but not Maharaj, simply because I don't think 2 spinners are warranted.

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I agree. Also hard to explain why Bairstow is at 5 and Bavuma at 7 when Bairstow scored more runs at 7 than at 5 and Bavuma never batted as low as 7. Billy seems to have a thing about insisting on the incorrect batting order.
Bairstow is the better bat but swap them around by all means. This is simply a collection of the 11 best players across the 5 tests.
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