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Old 20th July 2017, 19:40   #381
Fatslogger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
England are allowed not to have a good test team - it's really not a big issue.

But there is a golden veneer about this team covering up the fact that its not that great - backed up by the odd series win whilst ignoring some very very very poor results. Average players are bigged up to be some sort of gods when in reality they turn up once a series when we are on top anyway.

Some honesty is required - we are average and if anything declining.

Then we can have a debate about what to do next.
Nominate the average players bigged up to be gods? The only exceptional player this side has is Root, for me. Cook, Anderson and Broad are all very good, although their records are all buffed by longevity. I'd then have Bairstow, Ali and Stokes as all rather variable but perfectly decent test players who might end up very good (Woakes same bracket but obviously missing). Problem after them, is that we've fairly consistently been fielding three or four really dodgy players some of whom have produced the odd decent performance and some of whom (Ballance since recall) haven't even done that. You can carry that against weaker teams or if your other players mostly produce but you're going to lose heavily pretty often too, especially when you're up against India away.
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Old 20th July 2017, 20:19   #382
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I don't know who, whether in England or overseas, is claiming this England side has a "golden veneer". I think England, India, Pakistan & Australia are all pretty similar teams - good at home but average away. South Africa are clearly a cut above because they are consistently very good indeed away from home. But even the South Africans aren't quite as intimidating as the side with Kallis, Smith, AB & Steyn.

But coming back to England - I think anyone sensible accepts they are a talented but inconsistent team, and FS has summed up the capabilities of the players perfectly.
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Old 20th July 2017, 22:44   #383
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It's just Jock inventing stuff, as usual.

The SA side is interesting, because while it's a fair match for England, it seems and can cope without Steyn with the ball, it's far weaker than it used to be with the bat, even with the excellent de Kock proving the best wicket keeper batsman seen in world cricket for a long while. They got away with a very likely losing position in NZ because of a total day 5 wash out, for example and were soundly beaten by England only a test ago.
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Old 21st July 2017, 11:48   #384
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They were very lucky indeed in the final game in NZ. But even with the likely loss that would have resulted, a series win in Aus, a draw in NZ and thus far 1-1 in England would be a pretty impressive set of away results after the India debacle.

They do need to find a couple of quality young batsmen to support de Kock though, yes. Amla and du Plessis might only be around for another 2-3 years unless they do a Misbah (I assume de Villiers won't be seen in Tests again).
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Old 21st July 2017, 14:19   #385
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Nominate the average players bigged up to be gods? The only exceptional player this side has is Root, for me. Cook, Anderson and Broad are all very good, although their records are all buffed by longevity. I'd then have Bairstow, Ali and Stokes as all rather variable but perfectly decent test players who might end up very good (Woakes same bracket but obviously missing). Problem after them, is that we've fairly consistently been fielding three or four really dodgy players some of whom have produced the odd decent performance and some of whom (Ballance since recall) haven't even done that. You can carry that against weaker teams or if your other players mostly produce but you're going to lose heavily pretty often too, especially when you're up against India away.


FWIW I think these two teams are very evenly matched. The fact England got absolutely hammered doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen at The Oval.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 00:02   #386
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FWIW I think these two teams are very evenly matched. The fact England got absolutely hammered doesn't necessarily mean the same will happen at The Oval.
Thanks.

That's totally my view too. I can quite easily see the series shared with another win each or either team winning both games fairly comfortably. I doubt we'll get a draw without a lot of rain though.
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Old 23rd July 2017, 12:36   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
England are allowed not to have a good test team - it's really not a big issue.

But there is a golden veneer about this team covering up the fact that its not that great - backed up by the odd series win whilst ignoring some very very very poor results. Average players are bigged up to be some sort of gods when in reality they turn up once a series when we are on top anyway.

Some honesty is required - we are average and if anything declining.

Then we can have a debate about what to do next.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Nominate the average players bigged up to be gods? The only exceptional player this side has is Root, for me. Cook, Anderson and Broad are all very good, although their records are all buffed by longevity. I'd then have Bairstow, Ali and Stokes as all rather variable but perfectly decent test players who might end up very good (Woakes same bracket but obviously missing). Problem after them, is that we've fairly consistently been fielding three or four really dodgy players some of whom have produced the odd decent performance and some of whom (Ballance since recall) haven't even done that. You can carry that against weaker teams or if your other players mostly produce but you're going to lose heavily pretty often too, especially when you're up against India away.
Given the reams of posts discussing the England team on here, I am not sure the data servers that support this forum could manage an "honest" debate about "what to do next".
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