Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > International Cricket
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21st July 2017, 14:08   #41
cg3
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 412
I thought the last game would be a competitive affair. And it turned out to be a thrashing. Following another thrashing in the previous game. So I won't bother predicting this time.

As has been said, England have a strong core of players but a few weak links. That's a problem for long term consistency but it means they'll always be a chance of winning any game at least in these conditions. Only takes Cook to get a big hundred on the first day and Ali & Stokes to then smash the bowlers around - suddenly SA will be the team back under pressure.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 14:31   #42
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
I thought the last game would be a competitive affair. And it turned out to be a thrashing. Following another thrashing in the previous game. So I won't bother predicting this time.

As has been said, England have a strong core of players but a few weak links. That's a problem for long term consistency but it means they'll always be a chance of winning any game at least in these conditions. Only takes Cook to get a big hundred on the first day and Ali & Stokes to then smash the bowlers around - suddenly SA will be the team back under pressure.
AN Cook. 5 hundreds in his last 50 tests. Your belief in him is no doubt enhanced by the fact that even during his worst spell in test cricket in 2014, he still managed to average nearly 50 versus India that year, although this was buffed by some dodgy catching and no DRS in force at the time.

I stand by my assertion on here that I've made in times past that he has never been the same player since the Aussies had him on toast in the 2 back-to-back series of 4 years ago. His technique was so utterly dissected that even more moderate bowling attacks have usually worked out that bringing him forward more regularly than he would like affects his balance quite considerably and the braced front leg comes into play.

I refer to that braced front leg because it is what happens to me when I bat. I am a very lowly club player, but as a leftie the first person I curse when I get into that position is Mr Cook!
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 15:08   #43
cg3
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 412
My point was less around Cook and more that if one of England's big guns stand up with a major performance then the complexion of the game will look very different than at Trent Bridge.

I don't know how much I would read into those last 50 Tests. 10 of those were against India for only 1 hundred, even though he usually smashes us (as you imply). And a selective sample in such a long career can make anyone look bad. Between 2002 and 2007, excluding Bangladesh, Sachin had a 40-Test run in which he made 4 hundreds for example.

Also, probably some impact of captaincy pressure in those 50 games for Cook too.

No doubt his record against Australia & SA, the 2 consistently strong pace attacks that he has faced in his career, is a bit short of his overall standard. But that's at least partly an artefact of having to face up to highly skilled and quick bowlers with a brand new ball in helpful conditions for bowling every single time he bats.
cg3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 15:33   #44
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg3 View Post
My point was less around Cook and more that if one of England's big guns stand up with a major performance then the complexion of the game will look very different than at Trent Bridge.

I don't know how much I would read into those last 50 Tests. 10 of those were against India for only 1 hundred, even though he usually smashes us (as you imply). And a selective sample in such a long career can make anyone look bad. Between 2002 and 2007, excluding Bangladesh, Sachin had a 40-Test run in which he made 4 hundreds for example.

Also, probably some impact of captaincy pressure in those 50 games for Cook too.

No doubt his record against Australia & SA, the 2 consistently strong pace attacks that he has faced in his career, is a bit short of his overall standard. But that's at least partly an artefact of having to face up to highly skilled and quick bowlers with a brand new ball in helpful conditions for bowling every single time he bats.
His record v SA and Aus is markedly worse than the rest, with Aus bumped up by one admittedly brilliant series. Otherwise he average mid 20s in 4 of his 6 series against them. I had felt for some time that he might be a lot closer to the end of his career should he fail this time out v SA, fill his boots v Windies and then fail in Australia. Even before 2013 he had often been exposed v high class pace attacks, the 2010 Pakistan side that came here made him look an awful mess for a big chunk of that series. He was excellent in Asia for the most part though.

My point about this last 50 tests is that when Cook had completed his 25th test ton he had played 92 games. That put him up there in a fairly rarified class of batsmen who had a century to games ration of better than 1 in 4 over a good length of time. Fast forward over 4 years later and now his record is only a little better than 1 in 5 with 30 test tons to 142 matches. That is a significant difference. Cook is clearly a better than average test player but he is now some way off being a truly elite player. England have definitely been well served with Cook but I don't think he has ever been an exceptional player of high quality quick bowling. It is no sin to think, unless you happen to be a member of the embedded English cricket press corps when any criticism of him is seen as sacriledge.

SRT was in a different league as a batsman from the early 90s until around 2000 with only a handful such as Lara, Ponting, Kallis and Sanga belonging at various times since. After he had quite some trouble with tennis elbow, he was never the same fluent player although I do realise he have another prolific spell towards the end of the last decade. Some people have reckoned that SRT wasn't really that much of a player to watch compared to 3 of those others but that is a bit unfair on the earlier part of his career, at a time when cricket wasn't quite so readily available to watch on tv around the globe.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More

Last edited by Chin Music : 21st July 2017 at 15:48.
Chin Music is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 16:31   #45
billyguntheballs
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 484
As much as I hate to say this, I agree with the guy above. I'm am assive Cook fan and feel he should have been given mroe chances in the ODI side too but over the last several months, it's hard to justify him being one of the uncontested players in the side.

He is no longer the outstanding opener he once was and he is no longer the guy that can dig in for big scores. I certainly do not believe he hsould be dropped or have t oretire but there should be a question mark next to his name on the selection sheet.
__________________

I can accept failure...I can not accept not trying again.
billyguntheballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 16:36   #46
billyguntheballs
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
I'd mark it as just under sixty-seven out of a hundred.

Ali at 5 would require a radical shift in his approach to batting.
But we've seen him able to do bat well in the middle order before, so I see no reason why he can't do it again.

The bigger issue is Root shirking his responsibilities at 3 (oh the cpataincy, woe is me to be paid this much) and asking either a sub par test batsman to come in or a debutant. ANything but batting where he should and where he's at his best
__________________

I can accept failure...I can not accept not trying again.
billyguntheballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 16:47   #47
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
Posting God
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 26,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
His record v SA and Aus is markedly worse than the rest, with Aus bumped up by one admittedly brilliant series. Otherwise he average mid 20s in 4 of his 6 series against them. I had felt for some time that he might be a lot closer to the end of his career should he fail this time out v SA, fill his boots v Windies and then fail in Australia. Even before 2013 he had often been exposed v high class pace attacks, the 2010 Pakistan side that came here made him look an awful mess for a big chunk of that series. He was excellent in Asia for the most part though.

My point about this last 50 tests is that when Cook had completed his 25th test ton he had played 92 games. That put him up there in a fairly rarified class of batsmen who had a century to games ration of better than 1 in 4 over a good length of time. Fast forward over 4 years later and now his record is only a little better than 1 in 5 with 30 test tons to 142 matches. That is a significant difference. Cook is clearly a better than average test player but he is now some way off being a truly elite player. England have definitely been well served with Cook but I don't think he has ever been an exceptional player of high quality quick bowling. It is no sin to think, unless you happen to be a member of the embedded English cricket press corps when any criticism of him is seen as sacriledge.

SRT was in a different league as a batsman from the early 90s until around 2000 with only a handful such as Lara, Ponting, Kallis and Sanga belonging at various times since. After he had quite some trouble with tennis elbow, he was never the same fluent player although I do realise he have another prolific spell towards the end of the last decade. Some people have reckoned that SRT wasn't really that much of a player to watch compared to 3 of those others but that is a bit unfair on the earlier part of his career, at a time when cricket wasn't quite so readily available to watch on tv around the globe.
Pains me to say this, but good post Chin.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer
It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
geoff_boycotts_grandmother is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 20:31   #48
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 41,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
I'd mark it as just under sixty-seven out of a hundred.

Ali at 5 would require a radical shift in his approach to batting.
67% is a 2:1. Nothing wrong with that.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st July 2017, 21:26   #49
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chin Music View Post
His record v SA and Aus is markedly worse than the rest, with Aus bumped up by one admittedly brilliant series. Otherwise he average mid 20s in 4 of his 6 series against them. I had felt for some time that he might be a lot closer to the end of his career should he fail this time out v SA, fill his boots v Windies and then fail in Australia. Even before 2013 he had often been exposed v high class pace attacks, the 2010 Pakistan side that came here made him look an awful mess for a big chunk of that series. He was excellent in Asia for the most part though.

My point about this last 50 tests is that when Cook had completed his 25th test ton he had played 92 games. That put him up there in a fairly rarified class of batsmen who had a century to games ration of better than 1 in 4 over a good length of time. Fast forward over 4 years later and now his record is only a little better than 1 in 5 with 30 test tons to 142 matches. That is a significant difference. Cook is clearly a better than average test player but he is now some way off being a truly elite player. England have definitely been well served with Cook but I don't think he has ever been an exceptional player of high quality quick bowling. It is no sin to think, unless you happen to be a member of the embedded English cricket press corps when any criticism of him is seen as sacriledge.

SRT was in a different league as a batsman from the early 90s until around 2000 with only a handful such as Lara, Ponting, Kallis and Sanga belonging at various times since. After he had quite some trouble with tennis elbow, he was never the same fluent player although I do realise he have another prolific spell towards the end of the last decade. Some people have reckoned that SRT wasn't really that much of a player to watch compared to 3 of those others but that is a bit unfair on the earlier part of his career, at a time when cricket wasn't quite so readily available to watch on tv around the globe.
Good post. In Cook's defence he might be the best English player of spin I've watched, he picks up length well which is always going to be a big plus.

I've never understood the criticism of Tendulkar. As you imply, in terms of elegance and aesthetics, he loses nothing to the likes of Kumar, Jaques or Brian.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2017, 10:19   #50
D/L
World Class
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 6,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
67% is a 2:1. Nothing wrong with that.
Better than a "Desmond", anyway.

Ali is a talented batsman but has he the ability to bat so high in the order, especially if there is a need to dig in if 3 quick wickets have fallen (if 5 have fallen, the game may be almost up anyway)? I remain unconvinced.
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2017, 11:09   #51
blackeyedangles
County 1st Team
 
blackeyedangles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 347
Although I love his batting, I feel like he is a victim to the overly aggressive mindset.

Headingley he dug in and produced a wonderful rearguard innings. He can do it. It just doesn't happen as often as we'd like...
blackeyedangles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2017, 13:16   #52
Michelle Fivefer
Posting Goddess
 
Michelle Fivefer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: North West England
Team(s): England, Lancashire
Posts: 41,625
Quote:
Originally Posted by D/L View Post
Better than a "Desmond", anyway.

Ali is a talented batsman but has he the ability to bat so high in the order, especially if there is a need to dig in if 3 quick wickets have fallen (if 5 have fallen, the game may be almost up anyway)? I remain unconvinced.
He bats at 3 for Worcs but I've not followed his record there. He did make a 1st inns 50 v N'Hnts early this season but nothing in the 2nd innngs.

I'd say his flexibility is more of a hindrance than an advantage for his own development, although useful for a captain. He keeps being shunted up and down the order and often does a good job but if he had a settled position in the top five his batting could really flourish. As blackeyedangles says, he's a victim of the misguidedly "positive" mindset wherein "taking it to the opposition" is the perceived remedy whenever there is a game to be saved. (Tufnell was scathing on T & V about Bayliss's belief that scoring a couple of boundaries would put the opposition on the back foot). Given a regular batting position, Moeen could become a consistent performer with the bat and play more long innings.
__________________
As balanced and focused as the next man
Michelle Fivefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2017, 13:40   #53
Zebroston Chase
Not Lara or Chanderpaul but the best you've got
 
Zebroston Chase's Avatar
When Hope is gone, I will appear.
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Glasgow
Team(s): AFC Hornchurch, Essex, England
Age: 33
Posts: 18,335
That is the logic behind Stokes' continued stint at 6 and unfortunately for Mo Stokes is more favoured.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
I'm fully aware of his thinking, which merely underlines the point that he's an idiot.
Zebroston Chase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2017, 13:45   #54
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 41
Posts: 43,265
Ali actually has the better batting record. The perception is that Stokes has benefitted from being given more responsibility up the order, while Moeen has done just fine despite all the moving around and batting at 7 and 8. Strongly suspect it's just all coincidence myself but not one you can prove.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 11:52   #55
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,316
It seems odd that after a couple of years of shuffling around, Ali starts to flourish at 5 and Bairstow at 7, and you swap them around...
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 12:49   #56
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
It seems odd that after a couple of years of shuffling around, Ali starts to flourish at 5 and Bairstow at 7, and you swap them around...
Boycott said a few times on TMS that he thinks Bairstow should bat below Stokes in the order too. It was a case of trying to fix something that wasn't really broken, when there are bigger holes to worry about in the team.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 13:16   #57
Corbo 60
Posting God
 
Corbo 60's Avatar
'Blue Blistering Barnacles.'
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: In Limbo.
Team(s): Norwich City Kent CCC
Posts: 11,188
Glad we go to the Oval all even for the sake of the series. Not so happy about last test match capitulation. Out of touch to recommend changes.
__________________
'Sex drives everything', Rick thought as he sat alone on a barstool in the White Lion, 'and I haven't had any for ages.'
From 'Today Is The First Day Of'...on Amazon by Me
Corbo 60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 13:59   #58
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Boycott said a few times on TMS that he thinks Bairstow should bat below Stokes in the order too. It was a case of trying to fix something that wasn't really broken, when there are bigger holes to worry about in the team.
The problem to me is our upper order. The middle order are all attacking batsmen and if our top order keep seeing us 3-down for not much, England will keep collapsing. Yes, a gritty number 5 would be nice but I'd take a top three who are actually worth their place first.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 14:37   #59
stevieh
World Class
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Team(s): England, Kent, Canada
Posts: 6,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
The problem to me is our upper order. The middle order are all attacking batsmen and if our top order keep seeing us 3-down for not much, England will keep collapsing. Yes, a gritty number 5 would be nice but I'd take a top three who are actually worth their place first.
At the risk of repeating myself, and I know some others don't agree, Joe Root could bat at 3 to shore up the top of the order, which would allow Westley or Malan to get used to test cricket at a less-pressure batting position. Jonny would be better to bat at 7, since he will continue to be our gloveman for the foreseeable future. Moeen is totally wasted at 8 and has to bat higher up at either 4 or 5, given Stokes has the 6 spot reserved.
stevieh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2017, 15:58   #60
billyguntheballs
County 1st Team
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 484
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevieh View Post
At the risk of repeating myself, and I know some others don't agree, Joe Root could bat at 3 to shore up the top of the order, which would allow Westley or Malan to get used to test cricket at a less-pressure batting position. Jonny would be better to bat at 7, since he will continue to be our gloveman for the foreseeable future. Moeen is totally wasted at 8 and has to bat higher up at either 4 or 5, given Stokes has the 6 spot reserved.
OF COURSE Root should bat at 3. He just made a career out of it for almost 2 years and just as he becomes captain he shirks his biggest responsibility.

root at 3 basically frees up a middle order slot and lessens the strain on any debutant who may come into the side.
__________________

I can accept failure...I can not accept not trying again.
billyguntheballs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:08.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org