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Old 9th August 2017, 10:52   #381
Jock McTuffnel v3
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Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
This is very true. Does it also support the suggestion that there are very few decent spinners in the word right now? Jadeja is not a patch on many I've seen in the past yet appears to be a world beater. Most batsmen in Test cricket seem to lack the patience, application and maybe skill to lay half decent spin bowling.

DRS and T20 cricket appear to have helped spin bowlers in Tests.
Moeen's "magical leap forward in bowling skill" was sadly absent from the Champions Trophy.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/icc-ch...e= tournament
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Old 9th August 2017, 10:56   #382
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I think it's bit easy to slag off the batsmen when a type of bowler wreaks havoc. Good bowling will take wickets if there's help for it in the surface (or in the air for swing). Jadeja isn't a great bowler outside the sub continent (actually neither is Ashwin) but is devastating on dusty tracks. Clearly the SA batting ranks are not what they once were but are people decrying Anderson's figures against them because they can't play swing and seam?

On D/L's rather typical criticism of Ali, as usual a Southern player can only do well mostly through luck and conditions with at best a grudging acceptance that he may have been okay at times. Ali is a streaky batsman and didn't have an exceptional series with the bat but plenty of batsmen get lucky early on and wouldn't score many runs without at least the odd uncontrolled shot shooting past the stumps, just out of reach of a fielder or being dropped. His bowling though, was very good, which it certainly hasn't always been. Yes, Lord's offered a lot of help to spin bowling but again, you don't tend to write off seamers' wickets on a grassy Trent Bridge under leaden skies because conditions assisted. Also, Ali had a very decent series with the ball even excluding Lord's and the other surfaces were hardly dustbowls.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:05   #383
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
Moeen's "magical leap forward in bowling skill" was sadly absent from the Champions Trophy.

More data points required.
Different form of the game and he only bowled 15 overs so definitely more data points required there!

While I agree that it almost always helps to have more data, it's interesting that you didn't require more data points to write Ali off when we were concluding that his bowling was on a clear downward trajectory towards a test average of 50. I seem to recall year by year stats, graphs and all sorts of sweeping statements. Now that he's had an excellent series, suddenly we need more data, because the data we have no longer suits the predetermined conclusions.


Don't know how well this will come out but:

2014 7 12 175.4 20 618 22 6/67 8/129 28.09 3.51 47.9 1 0
2015 13 23 403.2 57 1558 39 4/69 7/116 39.94 3.86 62.0 0 0
2016 17 29 532.0 83 1962 37 5/57 6/117 53.02 3.68 86.2 1 0
2017 4 8 121.0 26 391 25 6/53 10/112 15.64 3.23 29.0 2 1
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:13   #384
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Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Different form of the game and he only bowled 15 overs so definitely more data points required there!

While I agree that it almost always helps to have more data, it's interesting that you didn't require more data points to write Ali off when we were concluding that his bowling was on a clear downward trajectory towards a test average of 50. I seem to recall year by year stats, graphs and all sorts of sweeping statements. Now that he's had an excellent series, suddenly we need more data, because the data we have no longer suits the predetermined conclusions.


Don't know how well this will come out but:

2014 7 12 175.4 20 618 22 6/67 8/129 28.09 3.51 47.9 1 0
2015 13 23 403.2 57 1558 39 4/69 7/116 39.94 3.86 62.0 0 0
2016 17 29 532.0 83 1962 37 5/57 6/117 53.02 3.68 86.2 1 0
2017 4 8 121.0 26 391 25 6/53 10/112 15.64 3.23 29.0 2 1
take it to the spin thread...
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:15   #385
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Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Different form of the game and he only bowled 15 overs so definitely more data points required there!

While I agree that it almost always helps to have more data, it's interesting that you didn't require more data points to write Ali off when we were concluding that his bowling was on a clear downward trajectory towards a test average of 50. I seem to recall year by year stats, graphs and all sorts of sweeping statements. Now that he's had an excellent series, suddenly we need more data, because the data we have no longer suits the predetermined conclusions.


Don't know how well this will come out but:

2014 7 12 175.4 20 618 22 6/67 8/129 28.09 3.51 47.9 1 0
2015 13 23 403.2 57 1558 39 4/69 7/116 39.94 3.86 62.0 0 0
2016 17 29 532.0 83 1962 37 5/57 6/117 53.02 3.68 86.2 1 0
2017 4 8 121.0 26 391 25 6/53 10/112 15.64 3.23 29.0 2 1
I think it is reasonably pertinent to note that Ali has now a very useful record at home with the ball in test cricket. He averages 32. Away it is 43 and that can be added to the 3 tests in the UAE that are classified as 'neutral'. There is a clear difference in effect. He had done very well in closing out the 3 tests that England have won and there is nothing at all wrong with a spinner closing out games on wearing pitches.
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Old 9th August 2017, 13:55   #386
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...On D/L's rather typical criticism of Ali, as usual a Southern player can only do well mostly through luck and conditions...
How do you square that with, for example, my praise for Westley and rebutting one rather ludicrous description of him as a failure after three innings?

Any road up, how "southern" a player is Ali? Speaking of Ali (another one), your comment is of the sort one would expect from him, which will perhaps give you a little pause for thought.
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Old 9th August 2017, 15:09   #387
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Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
Different form of the game and he only bowled 15 overs so definitely more data points required there!

While I agree that it almost always helps to have more data, it's interesting that you didn't require more data points to write Ali off when we were concluding that his bowling was on a clear downward trajectory towards a test average of 50. I seem to recall year by year stats, graphs and all sorts of sweeping statements. Now that he's had an excellent series, suddenly we need more data, because the data we have no longer suits the predetermined conclusions.


Don't know how well this will come out but:

2014 7 12 175.4 20 618 22 6/67 8/129 28.09 3.51 47.9 1 0
2015 13 23 403.2 57 1558 39 4/69 7/116 39.94 3.86 62.0 0 0
2016 17 29 532.0 83 1962 37 5/57 6/117 53.02 3.68 86.2 1 0
2017 4 8 121.0 26 391 25 6/53 10/112 15.64 3.23 29.0 2 1
It comes out as a nice little puzzle to work out what the column headings would have been if you had decided to be more helpful.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:01   #388
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It comes out as a nice little puzzle to work out what the column headings would have been if you had decided to be more helpful.
It's especially terrible on the iPad, which has tried to make phone numbers out of several chunks of numbers. I've never been able to get tables to work on here, although I've never tried that hard to embed them.

Think most of the columns are pretty easy to discern, although that they don't line up makes it a bit harder.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:16   #389
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How do you square that with, for example, my praise for Westley and rebutting one rather ludicrous description of him as a failure after three innings?

Any road up, how "southern" a player is Ali? Speaking of Ali (another one), your comment is of the sort one would expect from him, which will perhaps give you a little pause for thought.
One counter example doesn't disprove the general point. I said typical, not universal. I assume the occasional Southern player who doesn't appear to be in direct competition not with a Yorkie is okay from your point of view but obviously it's a bit hard for me to say, because it's your bias, not mine. You didn't actually criticise Ali's original selection, if I recall correctly, or first year or so in the side, because Rashid wasn't really in contention around then. Well, that's why I think you changed your mind. I'm sure you can offer an alternative narrative. Theoretical threat?

I don't think Ali is especially Southern, no, I just suspected you might. It's certainly the kind of thing Ali TT might have said because he's got your number too.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:24   #390
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My experiences of D/L are lived vicariously through others these days, but glad to know he still thinks of me. Not sure what I'm being accused of here - a southern bias?
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:28   #391
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My experiences of D/L are lived vicariously through others these days, but glad to know he still thinks of me. Not sure what I'm being accused of here - a southern bias?
Have you got him on ignore? He described that as being a losers mentality the other day. I think he missed out the apostrophe too.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:37   #392
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One counter example doesn't disprove the general point. I said typical, not universal. I assume the occasional Southern player who doesn't appear to be in direct competition not with a Yorkie is okay from your point of view but obviously it's a bit hard for me to say, because it's your bias, not mine. You didn't actually criticise Ali's original selection, if I recall correctly, or first year or so in the side, because Rashid wasn't really in contention around then. Well, that's why I think you changed your mind. I'm sure you can offer an alternative narrative. Theoretical threat?

I don't think Ali is especially Southern, no, I just suspected you might. It's certainly the kind of thing Ali TT might have said because he's got your number too.
It is, of course a perceived bias and one, therefore, that other published perceptions suggest may not stand up to much scrutiny.

Despite any comfort they may offer, a perception of where others stand, particularly one unable to stand up to debate and criticism, may also be similarly flawed.

At the risk of wasting my time with an explanation, I have put Rashid's non-selection down to some generally unknown, off the field error of omission or commission on his part. My comments on Ali's performance were intended as a counter-balance to some of the hyperbole about it and in no way related to Rashid's non-selection.
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Old 10th August 2017, 12:12   #393
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There's some muttering about fellow Yorkie Root not rating him, which is somewhat ironic in this context
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Old 10th August 2017, 13:26   #394
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Have you got him on ignore? He described that as being a losers mentality the other day. I think he missed out the apostrophe too.
I thought that was someone else and about declaring too late?

I wasn't aware this was a competition but D/L is welcome to any "victory" he feels he has achieved. I am charitable enough to allow him some small pleasures in his life if this boosts his happiness and sense of self worth.
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Old 10th August 2017, 22:52   #395
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It is, of course a perceived bias and one, therefore, that other published perceptions suggest may not stand up to much scrutiny.

Despite any comfort they may offer, a perception of where others stand, particularly one unable to stand up to debate and criticism, may also be similarly flawed.
Do you want to do that again in English? Don't by any means feel obliged though. I'm pretty sure that you're engaging in your usual authoritative denial that you're biased, because of course, the best person to assess bias is the one who's got it.

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At the risk of wasting my time with an explanation, I have put Rashid's non-selection down to some generally unknown, off the field error of omission or commission on his part. My comments on Ali's performance were intended as a counter-balance to some of the hyperbole about it and in no way related to Rashid's non-selection.
The selectors may just have looked at Rashid's record in test (and perhaps FC) cricket and been distinctly unimpressed and if so, I wouldn't blame them. Given our paucity of alternatives though, certainly judged before a series in which Ali looked a really good spinner, I too suspect off field issues may be relevant and there are certainly a couple of fairly well known instances of him not wanting to play that have been held against him by some, fairly or unfairly. Difficult to say for sure.
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Old 11th August 2017, 00:21   #396
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Do you want to do that again in English? Don't by any means feel obliged though. I'm pretty sure that you're engaging in your usual authoritative denial that you're biased, because of course, the best person to assess bias is the one who's got it.



The selectors may just have looked at Rashid's record in test (and perhaps FC) cricket and been distinctly unimpressed and if so, I wouldn't blame them. Given our paucity of alternatives though, certainly judged before a series in which Ali looked a really good spinner, I too suspect off field issues may be relevant and there are certainly a couple of fairly well known instances of him not wanting to play that have been held against him by some, fairly or unfairly. Difficult to say for sure.
I think he struggles with long tours and I suspect he will be used as a limited overs specialist from now on. His case for continued selection was weakened by his slump in form over the second half of the India tour, but I believe it's not just a pure cricket decision. There have been one or 2 stories but you never know for certain and it could be as simple as they don't think he is capable of improving as a test player and people trying to make more out of it. If there is more to it the ECB are best keeping quiet as the Leach thing wasn't well handled.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:26   #397
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Do you want to do that again in English? Don't by any means feel obliged though. I'm pretty sure that you're engaging in your usual authoritative denial that you're biased, because of course, the best person to assess bias is the one who's got it. ...
No. Just try reading it again. I'm sure you'll understand it eventually.

The best person to assess bias is one with true insight based upon something more than occasional posts on a web site. To claim you have this would be your most extraordinary claim so far.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:34   #398
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I thought that was someone else and about declaring too late?
It was. Forgive FS's confusion.

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I wasn't aware this was a competition but D/L is welcome to any "victory" he feels he has achieved. I am charitable enough to allow him some small pleasures in his life if this boosts his happiness and sense of self worth.
As I think you may be aware, the term "loser" is not one always used in the context of competition. That sort of renders your last remark a bit of a non sequitur, though charity can still be admirable, even if misguided.

Unless you again read this post of mine "vicariously", I realise I may have been wasting my time here.
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Old 12th August 2017, 14:57   #399
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No. Just try reading it again. I'm sure you'll understand it eventually.
So you weren't denying you're biased? Surprising but I'm pleased if I've contributed to greater insight.

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The best person to assess bias is one with true insight based upon something more than occasional posts on a web site. To claim you have this would be your most extraordinary claim so far.
This is a fair enough point but you can hardly be surprised that people on a website are going to judge you based on your behaviour on the website.
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Old 14th August 2017, 10:23   #400
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...This is a fair enough point but you can hardly be surprised that people on a website are going to judge you based on your behaviour on the website.
Not surprised at all. Why should such a forum exclude those unable to realise they may be making a judgment based upon information that is flawed, incomplete, wrongly inferred or any combination of more than one of these?
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