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Old 20th October 2007, 10:21   #81
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Jaques must be the favourite now to claim the openers spot for the first Test.
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Old 20th October 2007, 10:36   #82
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Originally Posted by cabinboy View Post
Noffke's a fantastic bowler and a great player to have in reserve.

Hard to see anybody touching the aussies over the next few years, their bowling contingent goes pretty deep: Clark, Johnson, Hilfenhaus, Lee, Tait, Noffke, Drew, Bracken, Edmondson. And that's before we even consider Gillespie, Bichel or Kasprowicz. Very healthy situation to be in.
Sorry, i just cannot take that seriously. How can you seriously claim that nobody will be "touching the aussies" (which is a pretty bold statement) when the list of bowlers you mentioned are either overated or unproven!? How can you possibly state a list that includes Drew, Noffke and Edmondson and state they will remain "untouchable"? These players are either good first class bowlers or potential international bowlers but of whom still have alot to learn/alot of improvement to do.
Australia will most certainly be pulled back to the pack losing Warne and McGrath as well as Kaspa/Gillespie losing their once sensational form.
Yes they have some bright prospects however a bowling attack of MacGill, Clark, Lee and Tait hardly fills me with the same fear that an attack of Warne, Mcgrath, Gillespie and Kaspa/Lee once had.

I my opinion England have the better prospect of young pace bowlers than what Australia has (Tremlett, Broad etc), we also have a far younger batting line up with players like Pietersen, Bell, Cook, Bopara etc looking to build a very strong base of a batting line up for years to come.

That leads me to believing Australia will not be 'untouchable', albeit they will still be a very good side.
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Old 20th October 2007, 10:39   #83
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Originally Posted by GloriousGloucesters View Post
Jaques must be the favourite now to claim the openers spot for the first Test.
Think he must be almost certain.

1. Hayden
2. Jacques
3. Ponting
4. Clarke
5. Hussey
6. Gilchrist
7. Watson
8. Lee
9. Clark
10. Tait/Bracken/Johnson
11. Macgill

I believe that would probably be the Australians prefered team if everyone was fit. A very strong top order, however their middle order does not look anything like it used to, neither does the bowling.
Still a strong side though.
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Old 20th October 2007, 10:44   #84
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I my opinion England have the better prospect of young pace bowlers than what Australia has (Tremlett, Broad etc), we also have a far younger batting line up with players like Pietersen, Bell, Cook, Bopara etc looking to build a very strong base of a batting line up for years to come.

That leads me to believing Australia will not be 'untouchable', albeit they will still be a very good side.



How many of the Australian bowlers that have been mentioned have you personally seen bowl to say England have better prospects?
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Old 20th October 2007, 11:32   #85
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Sorry, i just cannot take that seriously. How can you seriously claim that nobody will be "touching the aussies" (which is a pretty bold statement) when the list of bowlers you mentioned are either overated or unproven!? How can you possibly state a list that includes Drew, Noffke and Edmondson and state they will remain "untouchable"? These players are either good first class bowlers or potential international bowlers but of whom still have alot to learn/alot of improvement to do.
Australia will most certainly be pulled back to the pack losing Warne and McGrath as well as Kaspa/Gillespie losing their once sensational form.
Yes they have some bright prospects however a bowling attack of MacGill, Clark, Lee and Tait hardly fills me with the same fear that an attack of Warne, Mcgrath, Gillespie and Kaspa/Lee once had.

I my opinion England have the better prospect of young pace bowlers than what Australia has (Tremlett, Broad etc), we also have a far younger batting line up with players like Pietersen, Bell, Cook, Bopara etc looking to build a very strong base of a batting line up for years to come.

That leads me to believing Australia will not be 'untouchable', albeit they will still be a very good side.
Apologies but I can't take your line seriously, that is if you're trying to argue that England have deeper bowling resources than Australia. If you follow the Pura Cup, you'll already have noticed there's a huge gulf between the two domestic set-ups. For one thing, Drew, Noffke and Edmondson are performing consistently at a higher level in a far substantially stronger domestic league than the County Championship, where there is genuine challenge for places. And so are Steve Magoffin, Paul Rofe and Allan Wise. They are already holding their own against international Australian batsmen and are already the finished article. Broad or Tremlett (who didn't look that special this summer) most certainly aren't yet. Nor have I even mentioned the sublimely talented Moises Henriques, who has buckets of potential, arguably more than Flintoff.

Apart from Sidebottom, England have no pace bowlers who average under 30 in test match cricket - a truly awful statistic, despite the introduction of central contracts. At tests, the aussies are getting ready to rebuild their pace attack as probably are England. Australia have Clark who averages 17.81 and the overhyped Lee who averages 31.61. However they can augment that with a new generation who already look outstanding at one day level - Bracken 22.28, Lee 23.03, Hilfenhaus 26.00, Johnson 24.63, Tait 24.46, even Shane Watson 25.74. Whereas England have Anderson at 27.95 and Sidebottom at 19.13. It's madness even thinking England are in the same league.

At every level, Australian domestic cricket is stronger than England's, they have about 100 quality players to pick from for the national side. That's not a luxury England have. Unfortunately the County Championships is cram packed with kopaks, foreign players, over-the hill prima donnas, and sadly some utterly mediocre wannabes. That's not to say that it doesn't have strengths, but it is light years behind the Aussie set-up.There's no coincidence that Aussie debutants walk into the Australia team and perform from day 1, whereas England have to nurture along the likes of Mahmood, Plunkett, Anderson et al.
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Old 20th October 2007, 12:49   #86
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Apologies but I can't take your line seriously, that is if you're trying to argue that England have deeper bowling resources than Australia. If you follow the Pura Cup, you'll already have noticed there's a huge gulf between the two domestic set-ups. For one thing, Drew, Noffke and Edmondson are performing consistently at a higher level in a far substantially stronger domestic league than the County Championship, where there is genuine challenge for places. And so are Steve Magoffin, Paul Rofe and Allan Wise. They are already holding their own against international Australian batsmen and are already the finished article. Broad or Tremlett (who didn't look that special this summer) most certainly aren't yet. Nor have I even mentioned the sublimely talented Moises Henriques, who has buckets of potential, arguably more than Flintoff.

Apart from Sidebottom, England have no pace bowlers who average under 30 in test match cricket - a truly awful statistic, despite the introduction of central contracts. At tests, the aussies are getting ready to rebuild their pace attack as probably are England. Australia have Clark who averages 17.81 and the overhyped Lee who averages 31.61. However they can augment that with a new generation who already look outstanding at one day level - Bracken 22.28, Lee 23.03, Hilfenhaus 26.00, Johnson 24.63, Tait 24.46, even Shane Watson 25.74. Whereas England have Anderson at 27.95 and Sidebottom at 19.13. It's madness even thinking England are in the same league.

At every level, Australian domestic cricket is stronger than England's, they have about 100 quality players to pick from for the national side. That's not a luxury England have. Unfortunately the County Championships is cram packed with kopaks, foreign players, over-the hill prima donnas, and sadly some utterly mediocre wannabes. That's not to say that it doesn't have strengths, but it is light years behind the Aussie set-up.There's no coincidence that Aussie debutants walk into the Australia team and perform from day 1, whereas England have to nurture along the likes of Mahmood, Plunkett, Anderson et al.
This is substantially true but does rather exaggerate a number of elements of the Aussie set up. 100 quality players? There's nowhere near that number of state first teamers in total, even leaving aside the fact that some of them are nowhere near test class and others are over the hill. The problem with the cc by comparison is not lack of total number of English players (even with overseas stars and Kolpak players England has a far larger pool of FC players to choose from than Australia) but the relative lack of intensity. It's also a little excessive to say that Aussie debutants perform from day 1. Symonds, Tait, Watson? I'll give you Clarke (although he faded before returning to the side), Clark, Hussey.

On the fast bowling side, there is simply no guarantee that successful state and ODI bowlers will translate that to test level. I rate Johnson and Tait fairly highly but there's many a slip twixt cup and lip and they won't be coming into a side with the security of having one of the best fast bowlers and the best leg spinner ever to play test cricket bowling at the other end most of the time. As I've already suggested, MacGill was once rather better than a poor man's Shane Warne but these days I'm not even sure I'd call him that and he will weaken the side significantly in both batting and fielding too.

Where I think Beefy is wrong is in suggesting that the middle order is weak. Okay, Watson at 7 (if fit) hasn't convinced at test level with the bat but does have a fine FC record. I suppose Gilchrist is a bit of a fading force with the bat. Clarke is a good player though and it's hard to mount much of a case against Hussey. The batting I think will keep the Aussies well ahead of the competition, even if the bowling doesn't produce all it might. Part of the problem is the relative failure of any other test sides to mount a challenge.
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Old 20th October 2007, 18:26   #87
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A 100 players isn't as far off as it sounds FS, the six state sides have an active squad of something in the region of 15-16 players who regularly play, in addition to those who are contracted to CA and who rarely play. By quality, I mean first class quality rather than test quality, and you can see that whenever the Pura Cup players sign for English counties, they're usually head and shoulders ahead of their equivalents and invariably dominate the averages.

The majority of state players have had to fight their way into the state sides via club cricket, hence the reason why they are already primed by the time they turn out for their state. Even those that don't initially perform when they are picked for the senior side come armed with the right attitude and tools for the job. The step up from Pura Cup to international cricket doesn't compare to the step up from County Championship to international cricket. The aussies already enter the international arena as seasoned competitors and expect to do well. Tait for example will come good, and I'm confident so will Johnson, Hilfenhaus and sooner than later, Henriques. I am not so sure about Tremlett and Broad, though I would be delighted to be proved otherwise.

I agree that if there is a weak spot, it's likely to be in the spin department where only MacGill is test quality. His international record suggests he should still be a force, but whether age has caught up with him, we won't know until after the next Aussie series. And for a nation that brought us Shane Warne, it's surprising that there's a dearth of clones and acolytes.

I'm slightly blinkered and biased because I'm a fan of the Aussie domestic game, and wish we could emulate some of their strengths.
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Old 21st October 2007, 09:04   #88
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Jaques must be the favourite now to claim the openers spot for the first Test.
I think he has been the favourite for quite some time now. I think only an injury could stop him now.
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Old 21st October 2007, 11:19   #89
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Is Chris Rogers ever likely to get a game or do you think he just isn't quite good enough?
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Old 21st October 2007, 12:12   #90
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Australias bowling stocks are very overrated, outside of the current bowlers in the Aussie squad and even the players in the Aussie squad aint that threatening at Test level

QLD- Nothing left, led by 2 old men who cant get on the park, Nofke is a better batsman than bowler, their only half decent prospect is in the Aussie side performing on the subcontinent but nothing to say he will ever do well on flat tracks with the red ball

NSW- Hahhaha, Bollinger, hahahaha

SA- Chucker Tait is the only bowler they have, old man Gillespie is useless and they prefer playing 2 dud spinners to giving anyone else a shot

Tas- Hilfenhaus is all they have, needs the ball swinging to be effective, other than that they showed what they have today on a pitch their batsmen couldnt make any runs on they failed to take wickets

WA- They have a superb bowling attack, so good their supporters find it hard to work out which pace bowlers should actually keep their spot

Vic- Labelled the best domestic attack in the country, but thankfully for the rest of the world they play for Victoria so will never play for Aus
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Old 22nd October 2007, 03:01   #91
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Australias bowling stocks are very overrated, outside of the current bowlers in the Aussie squad and even the players in the Aussie squad aint that threatening at Test level

QLD- Nothing left, led by 2 old men who cant get on the park, Nofke is a better batsman than bowler, their only half decent prospect is in the Aussie side performing on the subcontinent but nothing to say he will ever do well on flat tracks with the red ball

NSW- Hahhaha, Bollinger, hahahaha

SA- Chucker Tait is the only bowler they have, old man Gillespie is useless and they prefer playing 2 dud spinners to giving anyone else a shot

Tas- Hilfenhaus is all they have, needs the ball swinging to be effective, other than that they showed what they have today on a pitch their batsmen couldnt make any runs on they failed to take wickets

WA- They have a superb bowling attack, so good their supporters find it hard to work out which pace bowlers should actually keep their spot

Vic- Labelled the best domestic attack in the country, but thankfully for the rest of the world they play for Victoria so will never play for Aus
Of course this is from the same guy who said (before the last Ashes) Clark was a hack and wouldn't take any wickets against England, McGrath was completely past it, Lee would get spanked and England's bowling attack far outshone Australia's...
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Old 22nd October 2007, 11:00   #92
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Of course this is from the same guy who said (before the last Ashes) Clark was a hack and wouldn't take any wickets against England, McGrath was completely past it, Lee would get spanked and England's bowling attack far outshone Australia's...
Yep and who was it won Australia the Ashes? The one player I didnt put down
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Old 22nd October 2007, 11:28   #93
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I'll put this in response to cb's post (too long to quote). In all fairness the cream of state players are considerably better than many of their county equivalents. Certainly the best players, (particularly batsmen) have come over here and done the business. In recent years though, the Aussie bowlers as a whole haven't been quite so successful in the CC, but they seem to have gone away and learnt from their spell. I do think that some of the young bowlers around the fringes should be spending more time playing winters overseas and at least Plunkett is doing that. Shame that he didn't have that opportunity before without being thrown in at the deep end.

As for Warne, he's a complete one-off he didn't come from the system entirely, too much of a maverick but a truly delightful one.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 12:20   #94
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Of course this is from the same guy who said (before the last Ashes) Clark was a hack and wouldn't take any wickets against England, McGrath was completely past it, Lee would get spanked and England's bowling attack far outshone Australia's...
Possibly, though Clark's stellar success was probably a surprise to us all, McGrath had just been out for a year, Lee I think is overhyped, and err England's bowling attack didn't turn up.

I'm pretty sure I argued for both Tait and Johnson's inclusions at the time. And I still think Tait should be promoted into the aussie team at the expense of Lee asap.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 12:34   #95
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Possibly, though Clark's stellar success was probably a surprise to us all, McGrath had just been out for a year, Lee I think is overhyped, and err England's bowling attack didn't turn up.

I'm pretty sure I argued for both Tait and Johnson's inclusions at the time. And I still think Tait should be promoted into the aussie team at the expense of Lee asap.
In all fairness I think a pace attack of Lee, Tait and Clark would be pretty awesome but could be undermined slightly if the spin option is significantly less successful. Quicks do their business in short sharp bursts but don't function well if the spinners are being milked, which was one of the whole myriad of reasons for England's bowling attack being so out of kilter from the off.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 12:42   #96
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In all fairness I think a pace attack of Lee, Tait and Clark would be pretty awesome but could be undermined slightly if the spin option is significantly less successful. Quicks do their business in short sharp bursts but don't function well if the spinners are being milked, which was one of the whole myriad of reasons for England's bowling attack being so out of kilter from the off.
That would be an interesting pace attack, wouldn't it? As you say, the merits of the spinner and possibly the all rounder (Watson?) would be very important though. Lee and Tait could easily find themselves going all over and then it would be too much to expect Clark to hold it all together by himself. I think Johnson is marginally ahead at the moment.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 12:59   #97
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That would be an interesting pace attack, wouldn't it? As you say, the merits of the spinner and possibly the all rounder (Watson?) would be very important though. Lee and Tait could easily find themselves going all over and then it would be too much to expect Clark to hold it all together by himself. I think Johnson is marginally ahead at the moment.
I'm not quite sure about Johnson for tests, he's neither a great swinger of the ball, isn't quite a master line and length merchant and isn't quite as quick as the others. His overall attributes are good though and he could possibly be a left arm version of Gillespie (in his prime).

Lee is still a top class ODI performer but it remains to be seen how he leads the attack in tests. Tait will take wickets in tests but I'm not convinced his action won't cause him heaps of injuries in the future.

I doubt they'll go back to Bracken, he really didn't look too special in tests when he last played but then again neither did Sidebottom and that would be an interesting comparison.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 13:01   #98
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Tait or Johnson for me. As I've said, I'd go for Johnson as I think he balances the attack a little better than Tait, who is a little similar to Lee. I agree that Bracken is probably down the pecking order. He's a lot older and it's not as if the Aussie selectors like picking the older player.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 13:15   #99
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Tait or Johnson for me. As I've said, I'd go for Johnson as I think he balances the attack a little better than Tait, who is a little similar to Lee. I agree that Bracken is probably down the pecking order. He's a lot older and it's not as if the Aussie selectors like picking the older player.
Not necessarily so, they did bring in Clark at 31 but I doubt they'd play both Clark and Bracken as it starts to look pacewise similar to Gillespie and Kasprowicz in the supporting role, which became something of a busted flush for them.
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Old 22nd October 2007, 13:40   #100
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Whenever the Pura Cup players sign for English counties, they're usually head and shoulders ahead of their equivalents and invariably dominate the averages.
That certainly used to be the case, but hasn't been in the last couple of seasons. In fact most of the bowlers who've come over have had substantially better returns in the Pura cup than they have in the CC over this period. Not that this proves very much.
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