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Old 15th September 2009, 20:14   #321
Michelle Fivefer
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
Indeed, if only they'd all followed the lead of Anderson, Sidebottom, Swann, Prior, Denly, Wright etc who are all having cracking series and reaping the benefit of not going.
I don't actually think that playing in the IPL had anything to do with Flintoff's or Pietersen's injuries. I think KP was already having achilles problems and Flintoff is just incredibly injury prone.

And why are you talking about these other players in the context of the one-day series? The concern at the time was that England wanted players fit and in form for the Ashes tests. Broad got a lot of praise for declaring that he wanted to concentrate on being ready for the Ashes and most of the rest weren't in demand by the IPL franchises anyway.
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Old 15th September 2009, 20:28   #322
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Originally Posted by Bobs Acid Tongue Forum Peasant View Post
Jesus H Christ, the poor lad can't win. It's only a month since you and the other Flintoff haters were slagging him off because he was wanting to play for England.

The 'mercenary' tag's a funny one. The state his body's in will he actually end up being better off playing cricket without the comfort of an ECB contract? Given his injury record I'd imagine any contract he signs is bound to have a few clauses written in to it, and the car, 24/7 medical supervision, personal doctors, fitness gurus and expensive trips to recuperate doesn't come cheap tha nos.
Lancashire are keen to give him a new contract.

I get a bit fed up of having my posts about Flintoff described by you as rabid hatred-filled rants about the man. It's difficult to see exactly what's going on here because his agent keeps speaking up on Flintoff's behalf so you don't know quite what to think. Since that post I have heard a bit more of the reasons for not signing the contract, and it seems he is still keen to playh for England, but without the strictures of the contract.

Without a contract Flintoff would be free to play for other teams and not need the ECB's permission. However, it's playing for your country that makes you a valuable IPL commodity so that's a bit of a catch 22. Without a contract, England can still pick him for ODIs, and definitely would do if he was fit enough. Flintoff wants to play one-day cricket and help England win the World Cup, but the team has to prepare for the World Cup for several months, and Flintoff may not be fit enough to play all those lead up games. Once again we'll be having the "will he, won't he?" discussions and once again team selection will depend on the possible fitness of Flintoff.
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Old 15th September 2009, 20:30   #323
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
I don't actually think that playing in the IPL had anything to do with Flintoff's or Pietersen's injuries. I think KP was already having achilles problems and Flintoff is just incredibly injury prone.

And why are you talking about these other players in the context of the one-day series? The concern at the time was that England wanted players fit and in form for the Ashes tests. Broad got a lot of praise for declaring that he wanted to concentrate on being ready for the Ashes and most of the rest weren't in demand by the IPL franchises anyway.
As the IPL players were the limited overs specialists, I thought that was the best way to judge them.

Broad's praise looks misplaced: he wasn't ready for the Ashes and had to play himself into form, only really firing at the end of the series.
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Old 15th September 2009, 20:39   #324
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As the IPL players were the limited overs specialists, I thought that was the best way to judge them.

Broad's praise looks misplaced: he wasn't ready for the Ashes and had to play himself into form, only really firing at the end of the series.
At which point everyone then started reminding themselves how he had unselfishly made that stand about the IPL.
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Old 16th September 2009, 17:36   #325
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Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
I get a bit fed up of having my posts about Flintoff described by you as rabid hatred-filled rants about the man...

However, it's playing for your country that makes you a valuable IPL commodity so that's a bit of a catch 22.
You've spent the whole summer belittling the man. Your constant put downs have been so relentless they've led me to believe you hold a personal grudge against him after he did something to upset you, like turning down an autograph request, or God forbid, sexual advances!

As for being a valuable commodity in the IPL, I believe Flintoffs profile and standing in the game is worth far more dollars than a place in the current test team.
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Old 16th September 2009, 21:51   #326
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I don't necessarily have a problem with Flintoff turning down a central contract, although I do think that the ECB should stop paying his medical bills as soon as his current deal expires. Fitness permitting he remains a no brainer for both T20 and 50 over internationals for England. If however he refuses to make himself available for any international cricket due to other commitments Flower and Strauss should pull the plug on him. If making money is more important to him than representing his country then so be it.
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Old 16th September 2009, 22:12   #327
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Q - if playing for your country makes you an IPL sought after type - explain Dirk Nannes.
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Old 16th September 2009, 22:51   #328
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Flintoff passes up central contract in order to have the freedom to go bungee jumping is what I read!

BUNGEE JUMPING!!!!!!!!!! With his dodgy joints? Very clever.
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Old 16th September 2009, 23:19   #329
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He's going to be busy.....


The Telegraph
It is believed that Flintoff has been offered by more than one broadcaster the opportunity to present reality television shows similar to the ones fronted by the likes of Ian Wright, the former footballer, and Ross Kemp, the actor.
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Old 17th September 2009, 02:33   #330
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Originally Posted by Bobs Acid Tongue Forum Peasant View Post
You've spent the whole summer belittling the man. Your constant put downs have been so relentless they've led me to believe you hold a personal grudge against him after he did something to upset you, like turning down an autograph request, or God forbid, sexual advances!

As for being a valuable commodity in the IPL, I believe Flintoffs profile and standing in the game is worth far more dollars than a place in the current test team.
Worth more to whom?

"Belittling" Flintoff? A strange word to use about a huge man. I have criticised the hype surrounding him and the egotistical monster he appears to have turned into, with his ludicrous wicket "celebration pose" and the way he and/or his agent tried to turn the Ashes series into the Freddie Flintoff show. Luckily the game was and is bigger than one man.

I did get his autograph once and he was very pleasant. That was back in the days when he was a likeable, unassuming Lancashire lad.
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Old 17th September 2009, 07:35   #331
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Worth more to whom?

"Belittling" Flintoff? A strange word to use about a huge man. I have criticised the hype surrounding him and the egotistical monster he appears to have turned into, with his ludicrous wicket "celebration pose" and the way he and/or his agent tried to turn the Ashes series into the Freddie Flintoff show. Luckily the game was and is bigger than one man.

I did get his autograph once and he was very pleasant. That was back in the days when he was a likeable, unassuming Lancashire lad.
With the greatest respect Michelle you could easily delete the word Flintoff insert the word Botham and the above would pass for a ''disgusted of Tonbridge Wells '' type missive to the Sports Editor of the Torygraph in 77-85.

Put simply you don't like his public persona. Fine. I would have thought an intelligent commentator - such as yourself - would have been above such a visceral reaction - you might qualify that by a little more appreciation that the public persona is exactly what it says on the box. My advice, if you find such things distasteful or patronising, would be to remove to a sport with less public exposure. English Lacrosse players, for example, are very 'grounded' we hear.
I agree that these 'emperors new clothes' exhibitions are not what we really want - but - in this we are blinded and mentally enslaved by our Englishness - our small 'c' conservative restraint - we believe deep down that actually anyone who 'celebrates' is a big head. We hearken back to Laker's 19 and remember the firm handshakes......alas.

I don't give a flying *&^% what he does I only care what he does. I follow sport to see sport -
My experience of meeting professional sportsman has taught me that most of them are - to be blunt - intellectually undercooked and thats fine - if I want intellectual stimulation I debate or I read in that genre. I am content that my cricketers are good at cricket - I do not require them to discourse on the immigration policy or discuss Sartre. I am therefore not disappointed when they come across as young men who have lived a sheltered life, cocooned and kept safe from the real world by the thing that they do well - if they have a modicum of intelligence I see it as a bonus.
Enough.

If Flintoff hams it up - why not - if he makes mistakes - what do you expect.
Stand back. Cut the guy some slack.
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In an England cricket XI, the flesh may be of the south, but the bone is of the north, and the backbone is Yorkshire."

(Sir Leonard Hutton
)

People from Yorkshire are very proud of their underachievement. You see these old fellas in the pub going: 'I've had a great life, me. Gone nowhere. Done **** all. Aye.
Paul Tonkinson
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Old 17th September 2009, 08:04   #332
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I think you have Michelle wrong there Diteras, it's not so much that he celebrated but more the way he celebrated. He did not share his celebrations with his team mates and did not show great delight, rather showed that he wanted worship. There wasn't even a smile on his face. That is distasteful in the extreme.
As said in the press the other day, he was and probably still is, far more popular with the public than in the dressing room.
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Old 17th September 2009, 08:10   #333
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With the greatest respect Michelle you could easily delete the word Flintoff insert the word Botham and the above would pass for a ''disgusted of Tonbridge Wells '' type missive to the Sports Editor of the Torygraph in 77-85.

Put simply you don't like his public persona. Fine. I would have thought an intelligent commentator - such as yourself - would have been above such a visceral reaction - you might qualify that by a little more appreciation that the public persona is exactly what it says on the box. My advice, if you find such things distasteful or patronising, would be to remove to a sport with less public exposure. English Lacrosse players, for example, are very 'grounded' we hear.
I agree that these 'emperors new clothes' exhibitions are not what we really want - but - in this we are blinded and mentally enslaved by our Englishness - our small 'c' conservative restraint - we believe deep down that actually anyone who 'celebrates' is a big head. We hearken back to Laker's 19 and remember the firm handshakes......alas.

I don't give a flying *&^% what he does I only care what he does. I follow sport to see sport -
My experience of meeting professional sportsman has taught me that most of them are - to be blunt - intellectually undercooked and thats fine - if I want intellectual stimulation I debate or I read in that genre. I am content that my cricketers are good at cricket - I do not require them to discourse on the immigration policy or discuss Sartre. I am therefore not disappointed when they come across as young men who have lived a sheltered life, cocooned and kept safe from the real world by the thing that they do well - if they have a modicum of intelligence I see it as a bonus.
Enough.

If Flintoff hams it up - why not - if he makes mistakes - what do you expect.
Stand back. Cut the guy some slack.
Loving that post. I've never met the guy so it is pointless speculating on what he's like as an individual and personally I didn't have a problem with his Lords celebration, as far as I was concerned he was allowed it after a fantastic spell. It was a darn sight more enjoyable than the shirt off celebration in India in 2002 when England shared the series. Perhaps back then he was the grounded Lancashire lad that MF once met.
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Old 17th September 2009, 16:10   #334
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I think you have Michelle wrong there Diteras, it's not so much that he celebrated but more the way he celebrated. He did not share his celebrations with his team mates and did not show great delight, rather showed that he wanted worship. There wasn't even a smile on his face. That is distasteful in the extreme.
As said in the press the other day, he was and probably still is, far more popular with the public than in the dressing room.
That's it exactly. The other thing is that he didn't really join in the celebrations for other bowlers' wickets or go and congratulate the catchers who gave him his own wickets. He seemed totally self-engrossed. People put down the lack of rushing to celebrate with the others to the fact that he was on his last legs, but he managed to run in to bowl so the least he could do is hobble towards his team mates.

That is just part of it, of course, part of the cricketer Flintoff has become as a result of being feted for the Ashes in 2005 and then spending so much time out of the team with injury. The irony is that in his early days I was a big fan and thought he got a very hard time from the media before he started to fulfil his potential. So I don't hate him as a person, I dislike the persona that we see these days on the cricket field and in the media. I'm very pleased to see him when he's performing well for England but whatever he's done in the past doesn't mean that the ECB should run around indulging his every whim. All this stuff about him now being experienced enough to know when he can play and when he can't, and how to structure his playing career is a bit much coming from someone whose lifestyle has been at times pretty chaotic. I also happen to think that he is being badly advised by his manager.

As Mike Selvey says in the Guardian today, Flintoff is not the centre of the England cricket solar system.
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Old 17th September 2009, 16:36   #335
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With the greatest respect Michelle you could easily delete the word Flintoff insert the word Botham and the above would pass for a ''disgusted of Tonbridge Wells '' type missive to the Sports Editor of the Torygraph in 77-85.

Put simply you don't like his public persona. Fine. I would have thought an intelligent commentator - such as yourself - would have been above such a visceral reaction - you might qualify that by a little more appreciation that the public persona is exactly what it says on the box. My advice, if you find such things distasteful or patronising, would be to remove to a sport with less public exposure. English Lacrosse players, for example, are very 'grounded' we hear.
I agree that these 'emperors new clothes' exhibitions are not what we really want - but - in this we are blinded and mentally enslaved by our Englishness - our small 'c' conservative restraint - we believe deep down that actually anyone who 'celebrates' is a big head. We hearken back to Laker's 19 and remember the firm handshakes......alas.

I don't give a flying *&^% what he does I only care what he does. I follow sport to see sport -
My experience of meeting professional sportsman has taught me that most of them are - to be blunt - intellectually undercooked and thats fine - if I want intellectual stimulation I debate or I read in that genre. I am content that my cricketers are good at cricket - I do not require them to discourse on the immigration policy or discuss Sartre. I am therefore not disappointed when they come across as young men who have lived a sheltered life, cocooned and kept safe from the real world by the thing that they do well - if they have a modicum of intelligence I see it as a bonus.
Enough.

If Flintoff hams it up - why not - if he makes mistakes - what do you expect.
Stand back. Cut the guy some slack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle Fivefer View Post
That's it exactly. The other thing is that he didn't really join in the celebrations for other bowlers' wickets or go and congratulate the catchers who gave him his own wickets. He seemed totally self-engrossed. People put down the lack of rushing to celebrate with the others to the fact that he was on his last legs, but he managed to run in to bowl so the least he could do is hobble towards his team mates.
Hang on a moment, you would rather he used his limited energies on celebrating wickets, rather than playing cricket?

It's not like when he took his own wickets that he embarked on a celebratory lap. He may have lapped up the attention, but he did so where he finished his follow through.
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Old 3rd March 2010, 14:37   #336
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Morgan gets an incremental contract.

Contracts 2009/10
Anderson, Bell, Broad, Collingwood, Cook, Onions, Pietersen, Prior, Sidebottom, Strauss, Swann

Incremental contracts
Bopara, Shah, Wright, Trott, Rashid, Bresnan, Morgan
Flintoff rejected his.

Non-contracted players can earn an England increment contract via a points system. Five points are awarded for a Test appearance and two for a T20 or ODI appearance, with an increment contract being awarded automatically once the player reaches 20 points during the 12-month contract period.

Since 1st October he has played 2 20/20s and 6 ODIs which would mean 16 points so he probably earned the contract on his 110*. I think he can consider his place in the team now established in the one day game.
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Old 3rd March 2010, 19:41   #337
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Morgan gets an incremental contract.

Contracts 2009/10
Anderson, Bell, Broad, Collingwood, Cook, Onions, Pietersen, Prior, Sidebottom, Strauss, Swann

Incremental contracts
Bopara, Shah, Wright, Trott, Rashid, Bresnan, Morgan
Flintoff rejected his.

Non-contracted players can earn an England increment contract via a points system. Five points are awarded for a Test appearance and two for a T20 or ODI appearance, with an increment contract being awarded automatically once the player reaches 20 points during the 12-month contract period.

Since 1st October he has played 2 20/20s and 6 ODIs which would mean 16 points so he probably earned the contract on his 110*. I think he can consider his place in the team now established in the one day game.
The headline made it sound as if the incremental contract award to Morgan was on the basis of the accomplishment - the 110* - whereas, as you have detailed, it is based on the games played during the period giving him the necessary point score.
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Old 21st April 2010, 07:21   #338
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The central contracts list - recently announced - makes grim reading from a bowling futures market perspective.

Full contracts for the recently injured Onions - unproven and unlikely as an overseas front line bowler.
Anderson - ok, but as been pointed out elsewhere, unremarkable in recent history.
Sidebottom, injured and lacking in conditioning both mentally and physically for international cricket - unlikely to ever be more than he is - at his time of career.
Broad - still undecided in terms of direction and temperamentally very young.

The shelves are bare.

If Miller and co have the slightest inclination with regard to who - if anyone - might have the necessary strength to take the new ball in November, they better get their heads out of their collective backsides pretty damn quick imv.

It would be no surprise to many of us if Geoff - a man from a playing era where medium pacers with excellent English f/c stats were routinely selected for overseas tours, to be mercilessly skelped, while selectors looked on in mock shock, were to follow this similar fuddled selectoral route.

I felt we had perhaps come beyond those days of defendable stupidity. But I am beginning to be more than a little concerned.
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In an England cricket XI, the flesh may be of the south, but the bone is of the north, and the backbone is Yorkshire."

(Sir Leonard Hutton
)

People from Yorkshire are very proud of their underachievement. You see these old fellas in the pub going: 'I've had a great life, me. Gone nowhere. Done **** all. Aye.
Paul Tonkinson

Last edited by diteras.aka. : 21st April 2010 at 07:39.
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Old 21st April 2010, 09:32   #339
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The central contracts list - recently announced - makes grim reading from a bowling futures market perspective.

Full contracts for the recently injured Onions - unproven and unlikely as an overseas front line bowler.
Anderson - ok, but as been pointed out elsewhere, unremarkable in recent history.
Sidebottom, injured and lacking in conditioning both mentally and physically for international cricket - unlikely to ever be more than he is - at his time of career.
Broad - still undecided in terms of direction and temperamentally very young.

The shelves are bare.

If Miller and co have the slightest inclination with regard to who - if anyone - might have the necessary strength to take the new ball in November, they better get their heads out of their collective backsides pretty damn quick imv.

It would be no surprise to many of us if Geoff - a man from a playing era where medium pacers with excellent English f/c stats were routinely selected for overseas tours, to be mercilessly skelped, while selectors looked on in mock shock, were to follow this similar fuddled selectoral route.

I felt we had perhaps come beyond those days of defendable stupidity. But I am beginning to be more than a little concerned.
Although I agree with the substance of this I should point out that these aren't new central contracts, but last year's lot. They are given out in September - they got mention because the larger non-Performance squad was announced yesterday.

The cupboard does look to be a bit bare at the moment, although there are plenty of young bowlers doing promisingly in the Championship, with Finn the most prominent. I imagine they'll give him every chance this summer to prove himself ready for the Ashes tour; because if they're not worried about the lack of a spearhead they should be.
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Old 18th May 2010, 19:06   #340
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Keiswetter has been awarded an incremental contract by virtue of his 3 x ODI appearances and 7 x T20 which have gained him 20 points.
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