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Old 29th May 2016, 05:59   #101
luckyluke
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It's not absurd to suggest that Woakes could be a better choice than Finn as a first change seamer, if Finn continues to look off colour and Woakes continues to look like a destroyer. I do like Finn though and there may be some really difficult selections ahead if all the bowlers are fit.
It will be an interesting few tests, good opportunity for Finn and Woakes to stake their claims. I like Finn too but it's disappointing that he's gone off the boil again. Maybe the challenge/threat posed by Woakes can make him raise his game.
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Old 29th May 2016, 08:06   #102
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It's not absurd to suggest that Woakes could be a better choice than Finn as a first change seamer, if Finn continues to look off colour and Woakes continues to look like a destroyer. I do like Finn though and there may be some really difficult selections ahead if all the bowlers are fit.
Slightly overstating from a sample size of seven overs?

However, Finn is a shadow of the bowler that bowls in everyone's imaginations so wouldn't be surprised if he was dropped soon. He did, however, take as many wickets in his last innings as Woakes has in this so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
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Old 29th May 2016, 08:52   #103
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Slightly overstating from a sample size of seven overs?

However, Finn is a shadow of the bowler that bowls in everyone's imaginations so wouldn't be surprised if he was dropped soon. He did, however, take as many wickets in his last innings as Woakes has in this so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Think your being a bit harsh on Finn given that he bowled very well in South Africa. However in a blog elsewhere I've heard him being described as a 'daisy' bowler, i.e. some days he does, some days he doesn't. I think that may well be what he is.
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Old 29th May 2016, 09:00   #104
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Think your being a bit harsh on Finn given that he bowled very well in South Africa. However in a blog elsewhere I've heard him being described as a 'daisy' bowler, i.e. some days he does, some days he doesn't. I think that may well be what he is.
When he came back into the side last summer he looked confident and in good rhythm and this continued in SA. However, he looks like he's struggling again to me - his run up is all over the place (it looks a massive effort just to get to the crease) and he was the slowest of England's seamers yesterday. I really hope he is able to put in a performance today.
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Old 29th May 2016, 09:54   #105
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Think your being a bit harsh on Finn given that he bowled very well in South Africa. However in a blog elsewhere I've heard him being described as a 'daisy' bowler, i.e. some days he does, some days he doesn't. I think that may well be what he is.
It was more of a dig at those who imagine Finn is something he's not nor ever has been. People really don't get just how much he fell apart in 2013; his yips were so bad it's actually pretty impressive he's even back playing international cricket. I remember seeing him at TB that year as Agar and Hughes tucked into him, it was distressing.

However, the subsequent remodeling of his action has left it very mechanical, as Psy describes, and he doesn't look like he's got any rhythm back since returning from injury. He's no longer, and unlikely never will be, a regular 90+ bowler with this action so he will need to find other ways to take wickets in tests. He did pick up some last test so don't yet think he's fallen behind Woakes based upon the latter's good afternoon yesterday
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Old 29th May 2016, 10:21   #106
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It was more of a dig at those who imagine Finn is something he's not nor ever has been. People really don't get just how much he fell apart in 2013; his yips were so bad it's actually pretty impressive he's even back playing international cricket. I remember seeing him at TB that year as Agar and Hughes tucked into him, it was distressing.

However, the subsequent remodeling of his action has left it very mechanical, as Psy describes, and he doesn't look like he's got any rhythm back since returning from injury. He's no longer, and unlikely never will be, a regular 90+ bowler with this action so he will need to find other ways to take wickets in tests. He did pick up some last test so don't yet think he's fallen behind Woakes based upon the latter's good afternoon yesterday
Up to a point though, this 'mythical' view of Finn also fails to take into account that he didn't always bowl that consistently well before his meltdown. In 2010/11 there was plenty of potential but he looked flat out on his feet towards the end of the Australian 2nd innings in Perth (he was about 21 then). 2ndly there was the issue with him kicking the stumps down (SA 2012) in his run-up that probably led to his current problems. Remember the 2013 NZ away series. After a fine ODI series he bowled ordinarily in the tests that followed and then the issue with him being encouraged to slightly change his action to encourage away swing with not quite the full rotation.

Like Psy I was very encouraged with his Ashes comeback and subsequent SA performance yet I am not blind to his faults before then or what he is now. There is much predictable and boring puffery from an encouraging performance from Woakes yet I would rather see a few more of this ilk before proclaiming that he might be a real answer moving forward and him moving ahead of Finn.
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Old 29th May 2016, 10:28   #107
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Up to a point though, this 'mythical' view of Finn also fails to take into account that he didn't always bowl that consistently well before his meltdown. In 2010/11 there was plenty of potential but he looked flat out on his feet towards the end of the Australian 2nd innings in Perth (he was about 21 then). 2ndly there was the issue with him kicking the stumps down (SA 2012) in his run-up that probably led to his current problems. Remember the 2013 NZ away series. After a fine ODI series he bowled ordinarily in the tests that followed and then the issue with him being encouraged to slightly change his action to encourage away swing with not quite the full rotation.

Like Psy I was very encouraged with his Ashes comeback and subsequent SA performance yet I am not blind to his faults before then or what he is now. There is much predictable and boring puffery from an encouraging performance from Woakes yet I would rather see a few more of this ilk before proclaiming that he might be a real answer moving forward and him moving ahead of Finn.
It's probably worth adding that even at 80-83mph, Finn's height and bounce will still make him a tricky customer for even test batsmen, as long as he can be accurate.
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Old 29th May 2016, 10:57   #108
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Slightly overstating from a sample size of seven overs?

However, Finn is a shadow of the bowler that bowls in everyone's imaginations so wouldn't be surprised if he was dropped soon. He did, however, take as many wickets in his last innings as Woakes has in this so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
I was including his county form. The point strictly speaking still holds if he only looked like a destroyer for 7 overs though. My view is that Finn playing somewhere near the top of his game a decent proportion of the time is a huge asset and that Woakes would have to be bowling incredibly well to edge ahead of him in that context (the extra batting really won't matter that much to the selectors with the lower middle order already including Stokes, Bairstow and Ali, although obviously it doesn't hurt). The Finn you're all quite rightly describing in the few posts above, however, is unlikely to be holding onto his spot ahead of several bowlers, Woakes currently at the front of that queue.

Oh and I think almost all bowlers are daisy bowlers. Only the very very front rank of them had anything like consistently high quality performances. Look at Anderson in SA.
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Old 29th May 2016, 11:42   #109
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So before the first Test when Finn was being hailed as a potential new ball bowler, when I stated it would be unwise to expect too much I had stats thrown at me about how many wickets he has taken per match in the last year. Now after a few mediocre performances, there are calls for him to get dropped. Woakes was never a Test player after one poor performance against SA, now after seven good overs he's a destroyer.

Both Finn and Woakes are good enough for international cricket, neither of them are as good as Jimmy or Broad, but we may not see a bowler that good for a long time. One poor match does not make someone inadequate, one good match does not make them a world beater.
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Old 29th May 2016, 13:00   #110
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So before the first Test when Finn was being hailed as a potential new ball bowler, when I stated it would be unwise to expect too much I had stats thrown at me about how many wickets he has taken per match in the last year. Now after a few mediocre performances, there are calls for him to get dropped. Woakes was never a Test player after one poor performance against SA, now after seven good overs he's a destroyer.

Both Finn and Woakes are good enough for international cricket, neither of them are as good as Jimmy or Broad, but we may not see a bowler that good for a long time. One poor match does not make someone inadequate, one good match does not make them a world beater.
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Old 29th May 2016, 13:21   #111
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Well done you
Definite improvement although usual SVaZ style thing of getting one lot of people saying one thing with another lot of people saying something else and putting it together as if there's something surprising in the inconsistency.
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Old 29th May 2016, 13:50   #112
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Definite improvement although usual SVaZ style thing of getting one lot of people saying one thing with another lot of people saying something else and putting it together as if there's something surprising in the inconsistency.
In any case, during the SA tour where Anderson wasn't bowling particularly well, the calls were for the likes of Finn and Stokes to replace him after say 3 or 4 overs rather than waiting the regimented 6/7 overs before implementing the change. I said that and the likes of Granny did too when the other two were in good bowling form. It almost seemed to me that it was not the done thing to bruise Jimmy's ego by withdrawing him so soon.
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Old 29th May 2016, 21:39   #113
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One poor match does not make someone inadequate, one good match does not make them a world beater.
Make your mind up will you? Haven't you been trying to convince everyone Moeen is a world beater with the willow after his first innings hundred?
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:19   #114
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Make your mind up will you? Haven't you been trying to convince everyone Moeen is a world beater with the willow after his first innings hundred?
No, I've long held the view that he could do a job in the top order. Not a world beater, but I wouldn't rather have him focusing on batting than bowling.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 09:04   #115
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Now holds the highest score by a #8 in an ODI.
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Old 29th June 2016, 04:57   #116
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he should be honour with wisden cricketer of year in 2017
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Old 23rd July 2016, 21:06   #117
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Woakes has brought his bowling average down from 63.75 to 47.18 with a fantastic 7-4-9-3.
It is now exactly 26.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 21:52   #118
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It is now exactly 26.
Certainly having the time of his life. Arguably the leader of our attack now, real zero to hero story.
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Old 24th July 2016, 01:07   #119
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Chris Woakes in this series so far :

With bat: 116 runs, average 58
With ball: 14 wickets, average 8.57

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Old 24th July 2016, 07:18   #120
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Chris Woakes in this series so far :

With bat: 116 runs, average 58
With ball: 14 wickets, average 8.57

He's done okay, yes. Think he needs a test hundred to be taken seriously as an all rounder though really.
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