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Old 17th January 2016, 13:26   #621
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Originally Posted by 1000yardstare View Post
Woakes should be the replacement for Stokes when he is injured. We can't have a team of all rounders. r
Why not? If the best five bowlers are also good batsmen then what's the problem?
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Old 17th January 2016, 13:35   #622
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Why not? If the best five bowlers are also good batsmen then what's the problem?

You could have a day where all 3 all rounders get runs and not wickets.
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Old 17th January 2016, 13:39   #623
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Good to see two England bowlers in the top 5. Reading this thread many say our best bowler is not in the top 5. Hopefully he can keep improving to be one of the best in the world and then we can say he is terrible, lucky or a bully.
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Old 17th January 2016, 13:41   #624
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You could have a day where all 3 all rounders get runs and not wickets.
The point is that he is the better bowler so his batting is irrelevant. If they were comparable bowler then you consider their batting and fielding. Both of which woakes is considerably better.
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Old 17th January 2016, 14:49   #625
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Footitt would be the best option to add a bit of variety to the attack. Having Ali, Stokes and Woakes in the same attack is a risk.
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Old 17th January 2016, 15:59   #626
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I think we've had this discussion quite recently. Botham also benefitted from the time, after WSC, it took for many of the world's best players to return to test cricket.
Yes we did, and I provided evidence that he didn't benefit in such a way because England played no sides adversely affected.
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Old 17th January 2016, 16:17   #627
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Footitt would be the best option to add a bit of variety to the attack. Having Ali, Stokes and Woakes in the same attack is a risk.
In what way? They played together in the first test and it was fine.
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Old 17th January 2016, 16:22   #628
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Originally Posted by Summer of '77 View Post
Yes we did, and I provided evidence that he didn't benefit in such a way because England played no sides adversely affected.
I think I provided a counter argument to that point. Any road up, those tests against the Aussies without their best players at that time may not only have dented his figures but provided a much tougher start to what turned out to be a long test career.

Back to the matter at hand - I like the argument that says that a bowler good enough to be selected and who can bat a bit too shouldn't see his chances diminished.
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Old 17th January 2016, 16:39   #629
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I think I provided a counter argument to that point. Any road up, those tests against the Aussies without their best players at that time may not only have dented his figures but provided a much tougher start to what turned out to be a long test career.
You provided an article which dealt only with Botham's career up until the armistice between the ICC and WSC. Details of the post WSC years are available for inspection on various websites. It's true that his early career benefitted from the WSC defections but it was for only 9 matches out of 17. And his first two Tests in 1977, against an Australian side lacking only Lillee, returned two 5-fers so he'd already shown he could mix it with their big boys.
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Old 17th January 2016, 16:46   #630
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...It's true that his early career benefitted from the WSC defections ...
Let's leave it at that then and agree to disagree on the degree and/or continue the discussion on a more appropriate thread.
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Old 17th January 2016, 16:54   #631
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Let's leave it at that then and agree to disagree on the degree and/or continue the discussion on a more appropriate thread.
Yeah, that's a sound idea.
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Old 18th January 2016, 01:47   #632
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Good to see two England bowlers in the top 5. Reading this thread many say our best bowler is not in the top 5. Hopefully he can keep improving to be one of the best in the world and then we can say he is terrible, lucky or a bully.
Brilliant!
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Old 18th January 2016, 08:50   #633
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Big shame for Finn, he'll likely miss the last Test and will be a doubt for the one-day fixtures after it. Even as a fan of Woakes, I don't see they'll gain a lot from giving him another single Test. Could be worth giving Footitt a go, see how he shapes up.
Yup, big shame for Finn. I'd favour Footitt over Woakes, Woakes hasn't yet established himself as a Test bowler and England are in danger of too many what some seem to be calling all-rounders, but I question if Ali and Woakes aren't to date 'bits n pieces' players - can bat, can bowl, but Ali's already been dropped down the order and Woakes is likely to bat #7 highest unless there's insanity in the ranks.

And whilst we may not know whether or not Footitt will succeed in Tests, Woakes is far from proven in Tests (5 Tests, 7 wkts @ 52.29) and still bedding himself in in ODIs.

On the flip side I'm no fan of players making debuts overseas or being given one Test with a big danger they'll not play the next one/series. You have to debut sometime, I prefer home Tests where the conditions are familiar shall we say, and try to give the debutant at least a couple of Tests (depends who is touring)

If England did go with Woakes I assume Broad would bat #10 and we'd end up with 3 bowlers whose averages are 52.29 (Woakes), 39.38 (Stokes) and 38.40 (Ali). I don't like five bowler theory at the best of times, but with Anderson not exactly firing (yet) that leaves a lot of pressure on him and Broad unless one of the others has a really good day - consistency has yet to be demonstrated by any of those 3, their averages tell you that.

Stokes has yet to average under 30 in a series which is a sign of having a very good series with the ball, but maybe the stage is set. Ali does boast the one very good series with the ball, but this is his 3rd series in a row he's bowled over 100 overs and not taken his wickets at less than 40. It is as economic as he's been.

So Footitt for me, shame for Finn
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Old 18th January 2016, 12:08   #634
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A genuine all rounder should be capable of getting 100 and 5 fer (or be a keeper) in the same game.

Likely to get 5 fer : Broad, Stokes, Anderson, Finn.

Likely to get 100 : Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow.

In reality we have 2 genuine all rounders - Bairstow and Stokes.
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Old 18th January 2016, 13:28   #635
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A genuine all rounder should be capable of getting 100 and 5 fer (or be a keeper) in the same game.

Likely to get 5 fer : Broad, Stokes, Anderson, Finn.

Likely to get 100 : Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow.

In reality we have 2 genuine all rounders - Bairstow and Stokes.
Lol. or be one of top run scorers and wicket takers in ashes glory?
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Old 18th January 2016, 14:20   #636
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
A genuine all rounder should be capable of getting 100 and 5 fer (or be a keeper) in the same game.

Likely to get 5 fer : Broad, Stokes, Anderson, Finn.

Likely to get 100 : Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow.

In reality we have 2 genuine all rounders - Bairstow and Stokes.
Don't think Bairstow's proved himself as a test keeper yet.
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Old 18th January 2016, 14:31   #637
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It wasn't all doom and gloom for SA. Rabada, Bavuma are two good youngsters. Thought Vilas was brilliant behind the sticks. Truth is that their middle order. Amla (OK 200 will put him top of the SA averages but...), de Villiers, du Plessis(?) just haven't got the runs. When/ if Steyn and Philander come back they will be strong again. As England/Australia/India all have seen, it takes time to re-build a side.
Philanderer and Steyn are 31 and 32. It's not a given that they'll return strong or at least for lengthy stays in test cricket.

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Originally Posted by Notts Exile View Post
Why not? If the best five bowlers are also good batsmen then what's the problem?
Exactly.

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Originally Posted by 1000yardstare View Post
You could have a day where all 3 all rounders get runs and not wickets.
Sounds like a good day if you're batting.

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Footitt would be the best option to add a bit of variety to the attack. Having Ali, Stokes and Woakes in the same attack is a risk.
Risk of what?
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 18th January 2016, 14:44   #638
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Risk of what?
Woakes averages over 50, and Ali and Stokes are around the 40 mark. If Anderson still isn't back to his best then there could be a lot of pressure on Broad.
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Old 18th January 2016, 14:46   #639
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Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
A genuine all rounder should be capable of getting 100 and 5 fer (or be a keeper) in the same game.

Likely to get 5 fer : Broad, Stokes, Anderson, Finn.

Likely to get 100 : Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow.

In reality we have 2 genuine all rounders - Bairstow and Stokes.
I prefer the definition of a true all-rounder as a player who would be selected to play on the basis of either discipline.

A player like Kallis (at various times during his career) would be a recent example. Would we pick Bairstow for his keeping alone or Stokes only for his bowling?

I don't think we have any.
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Old 18th January 2016, 14:49   #640
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Woakes averages over 50, and Ali and Stokes are around the 40 mark. If Anderson still isn't back to his best then there could be a lot of pressure on Broad.
Footitt doesn't even have a test bowling average so I don't follow that logic.
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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