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Old 18th December 2017, 19:09   #4341
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Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Yes that squad looks awful.

Questions to ask over what to do with Cook, Broad, Jimmy and Woakes. Jimmy is a banker for NZ and for as long as he wants to play. He has still been our best bowler along with Overton, who I think deserves a run in the team. I'd drop Broad and Woakes for the tour and tell them to go back to county cricket and earn a recall. I'd have a sit down with Cook and tell him I want him to open with Hameed for two years so he learns alongside him. It would give Cook a bit of motivation I reckon, as he looks a bit lost at the moment. Harsh on Stoneman but unless he scores a big hundred in the rest of the series, I'd move on.

I'd keep Ali but on the premise that he is only ever the second spinner. Hopefully the Stokes situation is sorted and he comes back in. So my team for NZ:
Cook, Hameed, Root, Malan, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Curran, Overton, spinner, Anderson (spinner probably Crane as he is first in line, but wouldn't mind Leach, Virdi or someone else).
That squad is for 4 years time in Australia. I like your top six for NZ.
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Old 18th December 2017, 19:15   #4342
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That squad is for 4 years time in Australia. I like your top six for NZ.
Yes but I still don't think there's much talent in that squad. If Malan is still playing at 34 yet batting down at 7, something very strange would be going on (or Bayliss was still in charge). There's always a danger of looking four years ahead, England need to make decisions based on the next 12 months.
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Old 18th December 2017, 19:48   #4343
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Originally Posted by sharky View Post
Yes that squad looks awful.

Questions to ask over what to do with Cook, Broad, Jimmy and Woakes. Jimmy is a banker for NZ and for as long as he wants to play. He has still been our best bowler along with Overton, who I think deserves a run in the team. I'd drop Broad and Woakes for the tour and tell them to go back to county cricket and earn a recall. I'd have a sit down with Cook and tell him I want him to open with Hameed for two years so he learns alongside him. It would give Cook a bit of motivation I reckon, as he looks a bit lost at the moment. Harsh on Stoneman but unless he scores a big hundred in the rest of the series, I'd move on.

I'd keep Ali but on the premise that he is only ever the second spinner. Hopefully the Stokes situation is sorted and he comes back in. So my team for NZ:
Cook, Hameed, Root, Malan, Bairstow, Stokes, Ali, Curran, Overton, spinner, Anderson (spinner probably Crane as he is first in line, but wouldn't mind Leach, Virdi or someone else).
I think that in any conditions we're better off with 3 openers than with 2, and that picking a third opener is our most likely route to getting a good enough no. 3, so I'd be inclined to keep Stoneman. The other batting option is Hales, who is likely to profit from not having been involved in this series and who is presumably the right-handed batsman everyone has been pining for against Lyon. Curran looks to me like just another English bowler a la Woakes. That may work in NZ, but looking further ahead it's unlikely to work in any other away series. In any case, TRJ is ahead in the queue.

My XI going forward after this series: Cook, Hameed, Stoneman, Root, Malan, Hales, Bairstow, Stokes, TRJ, Crane, Anderson.
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Old 18th December 2017, 19:54   #4344
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Yes but I still don't think there's much talent in that squad. If Malan is still playing at 34 yet batting down at 7, something very strange would be going on (or Bayliss was still in charge). There's always a danger of looking four years ahead, England need to make decisions based on the next 12 months.
I completely disagree with that and I think that has been a large part of England's problems over the years. There's too much of a concern with the short-term and not enough with the long-term, which means that we spend one series after another trying to solve a number of problem positions, while never actually holding a long-term view on any of them. The selection for this Ashes series was symptomatic of that thinking. In selecting Stoneman, Vince and Malan, they plumped for 3 guys who they hoped, but certainly did not expect to be decisive in an Ashes series. And the question in addition to that, as to whether they could be an integral part of the team for the next 4-year cycle, was probably never asked at all.

I would argue at this point that we need to pick a young team, invest in them, try to play an aggressive brand of cricket, and accept that there will be a lot of horror shows in the meantime. When I look at the current England side I see one bereft of identity. I don't see what Joe Root's captaincy brings to the team at all, and I compare that quite easily to Eoin Morgan's captaincy of the ODI team, where we seem to have taken on a boldness and a never-say-die attitude that has manifested as ridiculousness as often as it has been sublime. It has been so enjoyable to invest in that experience and see the guys within it grow in confidence as they've become more accustomed to the faith that is shown in them. The Test team in comparison seems to be full of angst and doubt in the same way as Joe Root is once he passes 50 (or when he's batting at all, in this series).

For all the supposed excellence of Anderson, Broad and Cook, it's hard really to define their legacy. They've overcome some weaker Australia sides, but they could well have been on the end of two 0-5 whitewashes by the middle of January. They've won no World Cups, they haven't conquered the world. They haven't often been the kind of entertainers that get you running from the bar (or to the bar, depending on your perspective). They're all very good cricketers, but I would say the most remarkable factor in each of their careers is that, for all their excellence, they all seem to be missing a critical element that could elevate them that little bit higher into the realms of excellence. For each of them, it's easy to poke little holes in their record which, when combined, phrase themselves as question-marks, and leave them short even of the category of modern greats. Would any of them get in the Australia side at the moment? How many good Australia sides would they have gotten into?

England need to start out by identifying what kind of Test team they want to have the next time they tour Australia. I'm not certain here, but I suspect that between then and now, we'll find ourselves playing around 50 Test Matches. For me, that gives a lot of uncapped players at present a great deal of potential for growth. Therefore, I would be looking at the team with a clean slate in mind, equally prepared to discard the stalwarts as the newbies. I'd look to build a team from inexperience, who are not blighted by some of the greatest failures English cricket has ever seen, and accept the next 2 years as a complete write-off if that's what it means. I would rip it up and start again with an almost completely new group of players. Joe Root as the standout batsman remains, Bairstow as the next best, and Malan as the best of the new guys who hopefully hasn't yet been infected by the old guard. Stokes is a big question mark for me because no amount of talent should be an excuse for continued recklessness. It's a question we have to ask, will he let himself down again? Once that's answered, pick a whole new team.
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Old 18th December 2017, 20:28   #4345
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I completely disagree with that and I think that has been a large part of England's problems over the years. There's too much of a concern with the short-term and not enough with the long-term, which means that we spend one series after another trying to solve a number of problem positions, while never actually holding a long-term view on any of them. The selection for this Ashes series was symptomatic of that thinking. In selecting Stoneman, Vince and Malan, they plumped for 3 guys who they hoped, but certainly did not expect to be decisive in an Ashes series. And the question in addition to that, as to whether they could be an integral part of the team for the next 4-year cycle, was probably never asked at all.

I would argue at this point that we need to pick a young team, invest in them, try to play an aggressive brand of cricket, and accept that there will be a lot of horror shows in the meantime. When I look at the current England side I see one bereft of identity. I don't see what Joe Root's captaincy brings to the team at all, and I compare that quite easily to Eoin Morgan's captaincy of the ODI team, where we seem to have taken on a boldness and a never-say-die attitude that has manifested as ridiculousness as often as it has been sublime. It has been so enjoyable to invest in that experience and see the guys within it grow in confidence as they've become more accustomed to the faith that is shown in them. The Test team in comparison seems to be full of angst and doubt in the same way as Joe Root is once he passes 50 (or when he's batting at all, in this series).

For all the supposed excellence of Anderson, Broad and Cook, it's hard really to define their legacy. They've overcome some weaker Australia sides, but they could well have been on the end of two 0-5 whitewashes by the middle of January. They've won no World Cups, they haven't conquered the world. They haven't often been the kind of entertainers that get you running from the bar (or to the bar, depending on your perspective). They're all very good cricketers, but I would say the most remarkable factor in each of their careers is that, for all their excellence, they all seem to be missing a critical element that could elevate them that little bit higher into the realms of excellence. For each of them, it's easy to poke little holes in their record which, when combined, phrase themselves as question-marks, and leave them short even of the category of modern greats. Would any of them get in the Australia side at the moment? How many good Australia sides would they have gotten into?

England need to start out by identifying what kind of Test team they want to have the next time they tour Australia. I'm not certain here, but I suspect that between then and now, we'll find ourselves playing around 50 Test Matches. For me, that gives a lot of uncapped players at present a great deal of potential for growth. Therefore, I would be looking at the team with a clean slate in mind, equally prepared to discard the stalwarts as the newbies. I'd look to build a team from inexperience, who are not blighted by some of the greatest failures English cricket has ever seen, and accept the next 2 years as a complete write-off if that's what it means. I would rip it up and start again with an almost completely new group of players. Joe Root as the standout batsman remains, Bairstow as the next best, and Malan as the best of the new guys who hopefully hasn't yet been infected by the old guard. Stokes is a big question mark for me because no amount of talent should be an excuse for continued recklessness. It's a question we have to ask, will he let himself down again? Once that's answered, pick a whole new team.
Good post. One thing I'd take issue with is that when we won Down Under, it wasn't really built upon 'project' players that we'd identified four years beforehand. Players like Trott, Tremlett and Prior were added to the core over a period of time as the team got more and more solid to the point it barely had any weakness, bar an ageing Collingwood. My point is that it is extremely hard to work out now what players we have to pick in order that they peak just in time for the next Ashes, and I'd hate to just throw away the series between now and then for the sake of it. The best way to develop teams is to pick the best players available with the odd spot for special young talent and try to win, win and then win some more.
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Old 18th December 2017, 21:15   #4346
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I would like to see George Garton and Tom Helm in the 2021/22 squad. And maybe Jamie Overton who I rate higher than Craig, he's certainly faster. Speed is essential for winning in Australia, England have never won there without an express bowler. The current team never stood a chance. Not without Wood and Plunkett. TBJ and Porter wouldn't have made any difference, they're nowhere near fast enough.
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Old 18th December 2017, 23:00   #4347
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Next time in Australia in 4 years

1 Hameed
2 Gubbins
3 Livingstone
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Bairstow
7 Malan
8 TCurran
9 Roland-Jones
10 Tongue
11 Bess

Lawrence or Clarke
Foakes or Davies
Parkinson
Stone
Garton
Interesting no Vince. Seemed to show enough to suggest he's one for the future.
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Old 18th December 2017, 23:38   #4348
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For all the supposed excellence of Anderson, Broad and Cook, it's hard really to define their legacy. They've overcome some weaker Australia sides, but they could well have been on the end of two 0-5 whitewashes by the middle of January.
Three 0-5 whitewashes for Anderson & Cook.
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Old 18th December 2017, 23:41   #4349
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Darren Gough says

Just 2 changes for next test
Crane in Ali out
Curran in for injured Overton
Woakes to open bowling (swing) Broad 1st change
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Old 18th December 2017, 23:47   #4350
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Darren Gough says

Just 2 changes for next test
Crane in Ali out
Curran in for injured Overton
Woakes to open bowling (swing) Broad 1st change
Sydney is the only chance of a win, so think I would aim for a draw at the MCG and play the extra batsman.
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Old 19th December 2017, 00:41   #4351
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Sydney is the only chance of a win, so think I would aim for a draw at the MCG and play the extra batsman.
Balance for Cook then ?
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Old 19th December 2017, 10:15   #4352
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Balance for Cook then ?
He mentioned an extra batsman.
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Old 19th December 2017, 10:30   #4353
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For all the supposed excellence of Anderson, Broad and Cook, it's hard really to define their legacy. They've overcome some weaker Australia sides, but they could well have been on the end of two 0-5 whitewashes by the middle of January. They've won no World Cups, they haven't conquered the world. They haven't often been the kind of entertainers that get you running from the bar (or to the bar, depending on your perspective). They're all very good cricketers, but I would say the most remarkable factor in each of their careers is that, for all their excellence, they all seem to be missing a critical element that could elevate them that little bit higher into the realms of excellence. For each of them, it's easy to poke little holes in their record which, when combined, phrase themselves as question-marks, and leave them short even of the category of modern greats. Would any of them get in the Australia side at the moment? How many good Australia sides would they have gotten into?
An interesting argument. Anderson is probably the best bowler in English conditions that we've seen, certainly since Underwood. Broad has not necessarily been a great bowler but has for sure been a bowler of great spells and has been ok for much of the rest of the time. His ability to destroy a side in one spell creates uncertainty that Anderson and the others benefit from too.

Neither of them would get in the Australia side right now for this series but then would you have selected any of the Australian attack to play Tests in England ahead of Broad an Anderson two years ago?

I said this in our summer, Broad has lost that zip. He's bowled ok on occasions and certainly not had any luck but he's not been the bowler who looks like taking wickets. England should have sen this and started planning accordingly, maybe TRJ was just that.

Why the clamour for Plunkett? He bowled very few County Championship over for Yorkshire last summer suggesting even they don't see his value in the longer format. What makes anyone believe he could bowl sufficient overs at a sustained pace to have any impact in a Test series? There just aren't the bowlers there, yet.

to those already telling us who will be there for the next Ashes Down Under, LOL. Good luck with that. Half those suggested have injury problems as long as Joel Garner's arms. Predicting fast bowlers' progression in England appears to be very difficult. Unless we have the ECB and the county management working in harmony (unicorn alert) this is unlikely to happen. Is JOverton that good, or is he just quick? Being quick is only part of the battle, if you spray it absolutely everywhere you're not helping. Mark Footitt has only once come close to getting an England call up, what really makes anyone believe that the rest will fare any better?

I'd be more confident that COverton, Curran T and Curran S are part of the next Ashes squad with none of them bowling much beyond 87mph. They'll be dangerous in England but as much use as a pop gun Down Under, we'll still play them though.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:16   #4354
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I think England's so-called big-four (Root, Cook, Broad and Anderson) have really let their country down on this tour, likewise Moeen and Woakes (who are senior players now). Unless Cook and Broad manage to put in a performance in the final two tests I would drop them for the New Zealand tour. The other four will probably make the squad although Moeen and Woakes may find they are no longer automatic selections.
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Old 19th December 2017, 12:49   #4355
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I'd be more confident that COverton, Curran T and Curran S are part of the next Ashes squad with none of them bowling much beyond 87mph. They'll be dangerous in England but as much use as a pop gun Down Under, we'll still play them though.


What speed did McGrath bowl at? He was pretty useful in Australia, I seem to remember
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Old 19th December 2017, 13:54   #4356
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What speed did McGrath bowl at? He was pretty useful in Australia, I seem to remember
He was exceptional and also was one of a four man attack which included one of the best bowlers of all time to.

If all three of COverton and the Currans can be as good as McGrath then I'm happy and will be proved incorrect. My suspicion is that they won't be and my fears will be proved right. Which way do you see it going?

Vernon Philander also has a very good record. He also bowls in an attack with Morkel and Rabada, both of whom are quicker than our boys.
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Old 19th December 2017, 14:33   #4357
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I am waiting for England to field a bowling attack of

Jamie Overton - tall and pretty quick can hit 90 but more like 85-87
Craig overton - tall and gets surprising bounce nibbles it off the pitch. Similar to broad really.
Tom curran - swing bowler (could be woakes)
Sam curran - left arm swing so nice variety. Could do with being a bit quicker but that may come.
Leach - proper spinner who turns it away from right handers. Doesn't need to bat because all four of the above are capable.

Stokes could be the sixth bowler.
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Old 19th December 2017, 14:40   #4358
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He was exceptional and also was one of a four man attack which included one of the best bowlers of all time to.

If all three of COverton and the Currans can be as good as McGrath then I'm happy and will be proved incorrect. My suspicion is that they won't be and my fears will be proved right. Which way do you see it going?

Vernon Philander also has a very good record. He also bowls in an attack with Morkel and Rabada, both of whom are quicker than our boys.

The point I was trying to make is that pace, whilst incredibly useful, is not vital. McGrath was a great bowler, but his basic attributes could be replicated by any of the 'tall' English bowlers, whereas few can bowl truly fast (& even fewer can do so with control).
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Old 19th December 2017, 22:53   #4359
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What speed did McGrath bowl at? He was pretty useful in Australia, I seem to remember
He started off his career a lot faster. But look down a list of top Aussie bowlers and there arenít many medium pacers apart from Terry Alderman. Itís the quicks that dominate - Dennis Lillee, Mitch Johnson, Brett Lee, Craig McDermott, Jason Gillespie, Jeff Thomson, Geoff Lawson, Rodney Hogg, etc.
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Old 21st December 2017, 11:07   #4360
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I am waiting for England to field a bowling attack of

Jamie Overton - tall and pretty quick can hit 90 but more like 85-87
Craig overton - tall and gets surprising bounce nibbles it off the pitch. Similar to broad really.
Tom curran - swing bowler (could be woakes)
Sam curran - left arm swing so nice variety. Could do with being a bit quicker but that may come.
Leach - proper spinner who turns it away from right handers. Doesn't need to bat because all four of the above are capable.

Stokes could be the sixth bowler.
To be consistent, wouldn't the 6th bowler have to be related to Leach?
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