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Old 5th May 2015, 11:28   #21
Jock McTuffnel v3
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Simple, some would say simplistic view. Name the spin bowler who will make England a better side in the first test against NZ.
We picked a non specialist opener to open - it failed - he's done.

We picked a non specialist spinner to bowl - it failed - um er um er work in progress blah blah blah - name someone else - handwring...

Spot the difference ?

No specialist spinner coach, Cook hates spinners - it's a farce.
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Old 5th May 2015, 11:41   #22
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We picked a non specialist opener to open - it failed - he's done.

We picked a non specialist spinner to bowl - it failed - um er um er work in progress blah blah blah - name someone else - handwring...

Spot the difference ?

No specialist spinner coach, Cook hates spinners - it's a farce.
I don't think it's the same problem, although I agree with you about the opening slot, as you're always picking two openers and may want any number of spinners from 0-3 (although most commonly 1 or 2). It's not exactly handwringing to ask whether we have a clearly better spin bowler than Ali who is going to improve the side by playing instead of him. Certainly we should have picked Tredwell or maybe Rashid ahead of Stokes or Jordan for the last test on that surface (not ahead of Ali) but we won't be playing NZ on a dry track. You don't pick your test side, or at least shouldn't, based on whether one player had a good game last time out, especially on a different kind of wicket. Yes Ali was disappointing with the ball and played a bad shot second innings with the bat but he was our second top scorer in the match with his first innings dig (and second top aggregate too, I think), was run out by his captain when going well and did take some wickets. Even on the single test selection policy it's far from clear that he should be dropped.
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Old 5th May 2015, 16:53   #23
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All this talk of not having options is a joke. Who would have said Swann would have become phenonomon he was before he was selected.

Here are some county spinners who could be given a go, and before they are tried we don't know if their good enough.

Danny Briggs
Adam Riley
Ravi Patel
Adil Rashid
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:00   #24
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All this talk of not having options is a joke. Who would have said Swann would have become phenonomon he was before he was selected.

Here are some county spinners who could be given a go, and before they are tried we don't know if their good enough.

Danny Briggs
Adam Riley
Ravi Patel
Adil Rashid
Gus Fraser doesn't seem to rate Ravi Patel as good enough for Middlesex at the moment, so it's unlikely that he'd pick him in the England squad.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:32   #25
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All this talk of not having options is a joke. Who would have said Swann would have become phenonomon he was before he was selected.

Here are some county spinners who could be given a go, and before they are tried we don't know if their good enough.

Danny Briggs
Adam Riley
Ravi Patel
Adil Rashid
Here are some others for consideration
Ashley Giles
Jim Laker
Shane Warne
Alistair Campbell
Lynton Crosby
A spinning top
Some crap 70s entertainer who spins plates on poles.
The subject of the song "You spin me right round, baby, right round like a record baby"

We can all name names, doesn't make them test quality. Simon Kerrigabn is better than all those you named, by quite some way over three of them . Can you remember how he got on in test cricket?
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:37   #26
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Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Here are some others for consideration
Ashley Giles
Jim Laker
Shane Warne
Alistair Campbell
Lynton Crosby
A spinning top
Some crap 70s entertainer who spins plates on poles.
The subject of the song "You spin me right round, baby, right round like a record baby"

We can all name names, doesn't make them test quality. Simon Kerrigabn is better than all those you named, by quite some way over three of them . Can you remember how he got on in test cricket?
You're being flippant. Weren't you one of the ones who was inviting other options to be named? If so, that's no decent way to respond when someone actually does so. I suspect we all remember how Kerrigan got on in test cricket, but I'm not sure whether that has much to do with how he'd get on if he were to be selected again, or how any of those other suggested players would get on.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:39   #27
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Here are some others for consideration
Ashley Giles
Jim Laker
Shane Warne
Alistair Campbell
Lynton Crosby
A spinning top
Some crap 70s entertainer who spins plates on poles.
The subject of the song "You spin me right round, baby, right round like a record baby"

We can all name names, doesn't make them test quality. Simon Kerrigabn is better than all those you named, by quite some way over three of them . Can you remember how he got on in test cricket?
I'm not sure all of those are eligible for England selection. Best thing is to find all the vaguely slow bowlers who are (cut off under age 40 and from at least a reasonably good family perhaps) and give them each a few tests in reverse alphabetical order. I bowl (utterly, utterly crap) leg and off spin and once got a ball to turn from outside leg to clip my then 8 year old son's off stump; I'm only 39 years old and my surname starts with a Z so I'm looking forward to my test career.

Grannie would like me because I'm okay in the field.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:42   #28
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Here are some others for consideration
Ashley Giles
Jim Laker
Shane Warne
Alistair Campbell
Lynton Crosby
A spinning top
Some crap 70s entertainer who spins plates on poles.
The subject of the song "You spin me right round, baby, right round like a record baby"

We can all name names, doesn't make them test quality. Simon Kerrigabn is better than all those you named, by quite some way over three of them . Can you remember how he got on in test cricket?
Ive never heard of a Simon Kerrigabn before.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:43   #29
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You're being flippant. Weren't you one of the ones who was inviting other options to be named? If so, that's no decent way to respond when someone actually does so. I suspect we all remember how Kerrigan got on in test cricket, but I'm not sure whether that has much to do with how he'd get on if he were to be selected again, or how any of those other suggested players would get on.
Yes flippant because I don't think the poster had thought much about the names he listed. A flippant response for a flippant suggestion.

I actually don't think any of those named would be better than Moeen who, poor as he has been recently, still seems to have a knack of collecting wickets.

You said that each county possesses a spinner better than Moeen, but a quick look around county scorecards suggests that spinners are either not getting selected or forced to take bit part roles coming on as fifth/sixth bowlers. How can we find a genuine test spinner if they can't even get a gig in the county game?
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:44   #30
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Ivr never heard of a Simon Kerrigabn before.
You probably should have checked your own typing before trying that sort of reply.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:45   #31
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Ivr never heard of a Simon Kerrigabn before.
Who's Ivr? Does he play for Glamorgan
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:45   #32
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Yes flippant because I don't think the poster had thought much about the names he listed. A flippant response for a flippant suggestion.

I actually don't think any of those named would be better than Moeen who, poor as he has been recently, still seems to have a knack of collecting wickets.

You said that each county possesses a spinner better than Moeen, but a quick look around county scorecards suggests that spinners are either not getting selected or forced to take bit part roles coming on as fifth/sixth bowlers. How can we find a genuine test spinner if they can't even get a gig in the county game?
This actually is a significant problem for English cricket but more when we tour places where we really need to pick and bowl some spinners than when we're picking a side for England in May.
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Old 5th May 2015, 17:54   #33
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Yes flippant because I don't think the poster had thought much about the names he listed. A flippant response for a flippant suggestion.

I actually don't think any of those named would be better than Moeen who, poor as he has been recently, still seems to have a knack of collecting wickets.

You said that each county possesses a spinner better than Moeen, but a quick look around county scorecards suggests that spinners are either not getting selected or forced to take bit part roles coming on as fifth/sixth bowlers. How can we find a genuine test spinner if they can't even get a gig in the county game?
You never addressed my first point about Swann. If these bowlers aren't given a chance we will not know what they are capable of.

Maybe Patel isn't ready yet, but why shouldn't Riley or Briggs be given a chance. More to the point, why wasn't Rashid given a chance against the Windies.

You also say about Kerrigan who had a nightmare in one game. But he was only given one game. Moeen looked ordinary against Sri Lanka and yet was given another chance against India. He performed well then but has since regressed. A lot of Moeens early wickets were taken due to the fact batsmen took risks against him. Now they are not trying to hit him to the boundary all the time, his wickets will dry up.
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Old 5th May 2015, 18:20   #34
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You never addressed my first point about Swann. If these bowlers aren't given a chance we will not know what they are capable of.

Maybe Patel isn't ready yet, but why shouldn't Riley or Briggs be given a chance. More to the point, why wasn't Rashid given a chance against the Windies.

You also say about Kerrigan who had a nightmare in one game. But he was only given one game. Moeen looked ordinary against Sri Lanka and yet was given another chance against India. He performed well then but has since regressed. A lot of Moeens early wickets were taken due to the fact batsmen took risks against him. Now they are not trying to hit him to the boundary all the time, his wickets will dry up.
There is a difference between handing a debut to Swann, a county pro of ten years who was always highly rated, and throwing one to one season wonders like Riley and Patel. The reputations of these latter two are enhanced by our desperation to find the next Swann than their actual abilities or preformance to date. I'd much rather they were given more opportunities to bowl for their counties before throwing them in the deep end. From what I've seen, both are good bowlers but very raw and a long way from international class. I don't know enough about Briggs as a four day bowler but I wonder if he's concentrated too much on the shorter formats. What I've seen of him, he doesn't spin the ball much and goes for quicker, unflighted deliveries, lacking the guile to succeed in the longer game. Again I'd like him to demonstrate across a season that he has something to offer but I wouldn't be opposed to a limited over call up. I think the fear with Rashid is that he's too loose. It's damned hard making it as a leggie, they need to be bloody good and I don't think Rashid quite makes the cut. Moores comment about him was odd though - "I hope he had a good tour". You're his coach, didn't you ask him?

Kerrigan, least we forget, was called up last summer but the reports suggested he bowled as badly in the nets as he had done against Watson. I fear his experience has damaged him, certainly his returns have been poor ever since. I wouldn't want the same to happen to Riley or Patel, give them more time to justify selection.
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Old 5th May 2015, 18:23   #35
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This actually is a significant problem for English cricket but more when we tour places where we really need to pick and bowl some spinners than when we're picking a side for England in May.
The last May test we won in England, Swann took ten wickets. English test wickets are very different to English county wickets. In particular they are very flat. This is probably at the root of the issue but I would go so far to say that England should never go into a test match without a spinner in England.
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Old 5th May 2015, 18:24   #36
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Moores comment about him was odd though - "I hope he had a good tour".
Suggests he was enjoying the Caribbean rather than working hard to take the positives or whatever management spin is in vogue now.
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Old 5th May 2015, 18:39   #37
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Swann was one of the few positives of the first Moores reign wasn't he? Constantly ignored by England who clearly had an issue with his personality than his bowling.
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Old 5th May 2015, 18:48   #38
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... You said that each county possesses a spinner better than Moeen, but a quick look around county scorecards suggests that spinners are either not getting selected or forced to take bit part roles coming on as fifth/sixth bowlers. How can we find a genuine test spinner if they can't even get a gig in the county game?
I said "I think almost every county has someone better than him [i.e. Ali]." It may have been a slight exaggeration in the immediate aftermath of our recent ignominious defeat. To be honest I haven't checked thoroughly enough, so I don't really know. But his own county certainly does -- albeit he (Senanayake) is not eligible for England. Senanayake bowled just 10 overs in the game just finished, which his side won by an innings. So yes, it's hard for us, particularly if one looks around at the start of the season. And it's understandable why the English-qualified spinners who keep their CC places throughout the season might tend to be all-rounders. But nonetheless, we do need to find a genuine test spinner. Many of the pitches we play on while on tour demand at least one of them, and sometimes two. And if we did find one, he might be more use than we might imagine at home, too.

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There is a difference between handing a debut to Swann, a county pro of ten years who was always highly rated, and throwing one to one season wonders like Riley and Patel. The reputations of these latter two are enhanced by our desperation to find the next Swann than their actual abilities or preformance to date. I'd much rather they were given more opportunities to bowl for their counties before throwing them in the deep end. From what I've seen, both are good bowlers but very raw and a long way from international class. I don't know enough about Briggs as a four day bowler but I wonder if he's concentrated too much on the shorter formats. What I've seen of him, he doesn't spin the ball much and goes for quicker, unflighted deliveries, lacking the guile to succeed in the longer game. Again I'd like him to demonstrate across a season that he has something to offer but I wouldn't be opposed to a limited over call up. I think the fear with Rashid is that he's too loose. It's damned hard making it as a leggie, they need to be bloody good and I don't think Rashid quite makes the cut. Moores comment about him was odd though - "I hope he had a good tour". You're his coach, didn't you ask him?

Kerrigan, least we forget, was called up last summer but the reports suggested he bowled as badly in the nets as he had done against Watson. I fear his experience has damaged him, certainly his returns have been poor ever since. I wouldn't want the same to happen to Riley or Patel, give them more time to justify selection.
Riley and Patel might not end up being one-season wonders. But you're right about the potential dangers of exposing young spinners too early. It wasn't good for Kerrigan (and to some extent it was careless of Cook to let it happen in the way it did, although obviously he can only take so much of the blame). Yet in our system there are also potential dangers in leaving the player to mature -- because what can tend to happen is that in order to stay in the team through the season the player concentrates to a large degree on batting, and then the bowling ceiling may be reached rather early (think Borthwick and Rashid -- they may well continue to develop as bowlers, and I hope they both do, but I don't think they necessarily need to in order to serve their counties very well, which in turn won't serve England well). Otherwise, the spinner's role is liable to be provided by a jobbing batsman developing the other way, like S. Patel or Ali, which again, unsurprisingly, is unlikely to give us what we need. It's a tough nut to crack, but it needs to be done. And if the latest bright hopes aren't ready yet and the bright hopes before them really have faded away, then we shouldn't be shy of calling up old-timers with no particular future, as long as they can do a job for us. That's sometimes worked for overseas tours in the past (Pocock, Batty).
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Old 5th May 2015, 19:06   #39
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It's not even a case of becoming an all rounder for spinners but that they might prioritise a certain styles of bowling. If you're only thrown the ball to bowl a few tight overs and give the seamers a chance to rest up, you're not going to have much chance of becoming an attacking spinner. As I've suggested elsewhere we need to really put pressure on the counties to produce better wickets. But apparently the opportunity for Essex fans to watch their side get rolled out by a few county trundlers for 150 every other week must take priority over the national side.
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Old 5th May 2015, 19:26   #40
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It's not even a case of becoming an all rounder for spinners but that they might prioritise a certain styles of bowling. If you're only thrown the ball to bowl a few tight overs and give the seamers a chance to rest up, you're not going to have much chance of becoming an attacking spinner. As I've suggested elsewhere we need to really put pressure on the counties to produce better wickets. But apparently the opportunity for Essex fans to watch their side get rolled out by a few county trundlers for 150 every other week must take priority over the national side.


Essex will produce plenty of pitches that will turn later in the season, but we're at the start of May.

We've also picked a specialist spinner every match so far this season.
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