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Old 2nd November 2015, 07:29   #81
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I expect he'll keep his place in South Africa, but you could make a case for either Patel or Rashid as sole spinner, depending on whether you want a fill-in control spinner, or an attacking spinner to dismiss the tail/exploit a last day pitch. Not sure what Moeen offers that's clearly superior to either these guys.
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Old 2nd November 2015, 09:05   #82
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I think, now, that the selectors' optimism that an ability to successfully open the batting may make him a player valuable enough to keep in the team may have been unfounded.
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Old 7th November 2015, 10:50   #83
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It was, quite frankly, a bit of a loony idea to ask Ali to open with zero first class experience of doing so, and with a heavy reliance on his bowling in exacting conditions. It seems obvious that the extra responsibility has negatively affected his bowling.
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Old 7th November 2015, 10:51   #84
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Does it? I don't actually think he bowled particularly worse than he did in the Summer.
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Old 7th November 2015, 10:58   #85
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The main different for me is that, in the summer, the tracks were pretty unresponsive to spin whereas the tracks in UAE have been more helpful. When seamers are taking wickets by the bucket load, spinners are in a supporting role.

In the latest series, the spinner was expected to bowl long spells in the heat, with seamers used in short, sharp bursts.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:01   #86
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The main different for me is that, in the summer, the tracks were pretty unresponsive to spin whereas the tracks in UAE have been more helpful. When seamers are taking wickets by the bucket load, spinners are in a supporting role.

In the latest series, the spinner was expected to bowl long spells in the heat, with seamers used in short, sharp bursts.
He may have had a bigger work load but I don't think opening had a particularly detrimental effect on his bowling as he seemed to bowl in a similar way to that which he had this Summer. I just don't think he's that good a bowler. Don't get me wrong he definitely should not have opened, but I don't think you can chalk his shank bowling up to it.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:11   #87
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Batsmen who are better at playing spin, as in the Pakistan team compared with the Aussies, must also be a huge factor. So much of a spinner's art is getting a mental or psychological edge over the batsmen. Exhibit A:- Shane Warne; had all kinds of new mystery balls he'd be talking up, zooters and shooters and the like. In reality, most of the time, he meant the straight one which didn't turn.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:22   #88
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Originally Posted by stevieh View Post
Batsmen who are better at playing spin, as in the Pakistan team compared with the Aussies, must also be a huge factor. So much of a spinner's art is getting a mental or psychological edge over the batsmen. Exhibit A:- Shane Warne; had all kinds of new mystery balls he'd be talking up, zooters and shooters and the like. In reality, most of the time, he meant the straight one which didn't turn.
There were the scooters and the zooters and the flippers and the flappers too.

Ali should be seen as a middle order batsman and a part-time spinner. Given a dearth of other options, that he has become a regular until now, isn't too surprising.

His batting and bowling in the UAE have done little to enhance his credentials and I reckon his star may be on the wane.
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Old 19th January 2016, 19:39   #89
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Pulled out of IPL. Nice to see him putting his England carreer first but not sure he would have played much anyway.
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Old 20th January 2016, 11:45   #90
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I think the disappointing aspect about Moeen is how neither his batting or bowling has improved. In fact his bowling has gone backwards,throwing up more and more filth each game, and he keeps getting out to bad shots.

When he came into the England side the commentators loved to tell us about his appetite to learn and his cool head. Neither are in evidence currently.
I did some stats research which I posted on another thread -

Other English bowlers capped since 1980 who have somehow been selected for over 20 tests and only managed just 1 five fer.

Tim Bresnan (1 in 23 tests)
Robert Croft (1 in 21 tests)
Craig White (1 in 30 tests)
Moeen Ali (1 in 22 tests)

I haven't gone beyond being capped after 1980 but I suspect there may not be many bowlers who have played that many tests with only 1 fiver. And obviously that was in his first 5 tests against a rabble of an Indian side.

Moeen should match Bressie this week.
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Old 20th January 2016, 11:55   #91
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I did some stats research which I posted on another thread -

Other English bowlers capped since 1980 who have somehow been selected for over 20 tests and only managed just 1 five fer.

Tim Bresnan (1 in 23 tests)
Robert Croft (1 in 21 tests)
Craig White (1 in 30 tests)
Moeen Ali (1 in 22 tests)

I haven't gone beyond being capped after 1980 but I suspect there may not be many bowlers who have played that many tests with only 1 fiver. And obviously that was in his first 5 tests against a rabble of an Indian side.

Moeen should match Bressie this week.
I assume that you take into account that three of them are all rounders and one was the best of a bad bunch of spin bowlers? How many many of the match awards have they had? 22 players play so as long as one in 22 that is alright
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Old 20th January 2016, 11:58   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jock McTuffnel v3 View Post
I did some stats research which I posted on another thread -

Other English bowlers capped since 1980 who have somehow been selected for over 20 tests and only managed just 1 five fer.

Tim Bresnan (1 in 23 tests)
Robert Croft (1 in 21 tests)
Craig White (1 in 30 tests)
Moeen Ali (1 in 22 tests)

I haven't gone beyond being capped after 1980 but I suspect there may not be many bowlers who have played that many tests with only 1 fiver. And obviously that was in his first 5 tests against a rabble of an Indian side.

Moeen should match Bressie this week.
His batting is more concerning. When he hit that century against Sri Lanka he showed he could dig in and be a proper Test batsman. Since then he hasn't offered anything substantial batting at 1,6,7 or 8. He made a few half centuries in the Ashes but never looked like he could save a match for England.
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Old 20th January 2016, 12:00   #93
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I assume that you take into account that three of them are all rounders and one was the best of a bad bunch of spin bowlers? How many many of the match awards have they had?
I think quasi all rounders would be more appropriate. There is no way that Bresnan or White would have got close to a test call-up on batting alone and that when Ali started he was a batsman who bowled but ended up being shunted down the order.
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Old 20th January 2016, 12:00   #94
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His batting is more concerning. When he hit that century against Sri Lanka he showed he could dig in and be a proper Test batsman. Since then he hasn't offered anything substantial batting at 1,6,7 or 8. He made a few half centuries in the Ashes but never looked like he could save a match for England.
But turned two matches in the ashes and ended as third highest English scorer didn't he? Or did I dream watching him demolish Mitch at brum?
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Old 20th January 2016, 12:02   #95
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I think quasi all rounders would be more appropriate. There is no way that Bresnan or White would have got close to a test call-up on batting alone and that when Ali started he was a batsman who bowled but ended up being shunted down the order.
Didn't we all agree that the "get in for either skill" is crap? By definition they don't practise as much in specialist skills and they are selected for both not one.
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Old 20th January 2016, 12:03   #96
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But turned two matches in the ashes and ended as third highest English scorer didn't he? Or did I dream watching him demolish Mitch at brum?
He did score runs but never made a big score. When he first came into the side he showed he could build an innings at Test level, but since then he's made the odd brisk fifty down the order. There have been plenty of times him digging in would have been useful, but when England have been in serious trouble and have needed someone to stick around he hasn't stepped up.
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Old 20th January 2016, 12:06   #97
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Bresnan was a bowler, selected as such and dropped as such. He was also first change in a four man attack in most cases, which makes his record even less impressive. At least Ali can claim he has often been the fourth or fifth bowler in a five man attack.
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Old 20th January 2016, 13:19   #98
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He did score runs but never made a big score. When he first came into the side he showed he could build an innings at Test level, but since then he's made the odd brisk fifty down the order. There have been plenty of times him digging in would have been useful, but when England have been in serious trouble and have needed someone to stick around he hasn't stepped up.
Should he have dug in at 190 for 7 or smash 59 to add almost 100 with the tail?

Should he have dug in at 343 for 7 overnight after day one of the ashes series or come out and smashed 77 to add almost 100 with the tail?

Should he have dug in at 310 for 8 at Trent bridge or smashed 38 off 24 to add 60 with last two wickets?

Three ashes wins and three perfect innings.
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Old 20th January 2016, 13:20   #99
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No idea why that posted twice. Sorry. Have a third post.
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Old 20th January 2016, 13:24   #100
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Should he have dug in at 190 for 7 or smash 59 to add almost 100 with the tail?

Should he have dug in at 343 for 7 overnight after day one of the ashes series or come out and smashed 77 to add almost 100 with the tail?

Should he have dug in at 310 for 8 at Trent bridge or smashed 38 off 24 to add 60 with last two wickets?

Three ashes wins and three perfect innings.
So you mean that he batted according to the needs of the situation?

PS I've deleted the extra post if you were wondering.
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