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Old 28th June 2008, 13:55   #61
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Harsh to judge anyone on a t20 game but Samit looked a hephalump in the field last night.
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Old 28th June 2008, 14:07   #62
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He did wobble in certain places, rather unattractively it has to be said. He is still a wonderfully talented batsman
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Old 28th June 2008, 14:20   #63
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when doesn't he??
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Old 28th June 2008, 14:40   #64
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Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
It's a fairly simple and very apposite comparison. The comparison is the Zimbabwe team at it's best vintage - both Flowers, Goodwin, Campbell, etc. and the current New Zealand team after retirements and the BCCI have reduced them to rather a lesser side than they have been for the past 10 years.
Yes well its one thing to compare the decline of the full strength Zimbabwe team to the decline of the full strength NZ team due to rather unfortunate circumstances. However the full strength NZ team was still better than the full strength Zim team and the weakened NZ team is still considerably better than the weakened Zim team. Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that GBG was just making a direct comparison with the NZ team to the Zimbabwe team, which as I said is just completely nonsensical when you actually look at the facts.
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Old 28th June 2008, 15:06   #65
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Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
It's a fairly simple and very apposite comparison. The comparison is the Zimbabwe team at it's best vintage - both Flowers, Goodwin, Campbell, etc. and the current New Zealand team after retirements and the BCCI have reduced them to rather a lesser side than they have been for the past 10 years.

A decent side would have a decent game with them, but beat them. The fact that England aren't (and didn't vs Zim) is evidence that we aren't a decent side either. The question we are posing is how do we fiddle with the team to improve it.
Thank you, at least someone can grasp the point I was trying to make.
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Old 28th June 2008, 15:17   #66
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Originally Posted by Greatbatch View Post
Yes well its one thing to compare the decline of the full strength Zimbabwe team to the decline of the full strength NZ team due to rather unfortunate circumstances. However the full strength NZ team was still better than the full strength Zim team and the weakened NZ team is still considerably better than the weakened Zim team. Maybe I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that GBG was just making a direct comparison with the NZ team to the Zimbabwe team, which as I said is just completely nonsensical when you actually look at the facts.
I'm comparing the current NZ team (sans the brilliant Bond, and the very good Fleming, and various other experinced international performers like McMillan as well as Oram for most of the series) with the Zimbabwe team before it fell apart.

The number of stars in each team is similar, both teams had journeyman, but they scrapped and were very good in the field.

I'm certainly not comparing it to the ragged mob briefly led by Taibu until even he was forced out.

Something along the lines of:

R. Taylor = A. Flower
McCullum = Taibu
Styris = G. Flower
How = Goodwin
Flynn = Campbell
Mills = N. Johnson
Vettori = Streak
Gillespie=Brandes

most of the rest are forgettable.
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Old 28th June 2008, 15:41   #67
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
I'm comparing the current NZ team (sans the brilliant Bond, and the very good Fleming, and various other experinced international performers like McMillan as well as Oram for most of the series) with the Zimbabwe team before it fell apart.

The number of stars in each team is similar, both teams had journeyman, but they scrapped and were very good in the field.

I'm certainly not comparing it to the ragged mob briefly led by Taibu until even he was forced out.

Something along the lines of:

R. Taylor = A. Flower
McCullum = Taibu
Styris = G. Flower
How = Goodwin
Flynn = Campbell
Mills = N. Johnson
Vettori = Streak
Gillespie=Brandes

most of the rest are forgettable.
Yes well OK, but the NZ players you are comparing the Zim players to are still much better on the whole. Andy Flower was a class act no doubt but Ross Taylor has equally as much talent and infinitely more potential. McCullum compared to Taibu is like comparing Bradman to Chris Martin whilst I would pick Styris, How and Flynn ahead of G Flower, Goodwin and Campbell any day of the week. Don't know much about N Johnson or Brandes to be honest but I would be confident that Mills and Gillespie would at least hold their own against them if not edge them for ability. Hard to compare Streak with Vettori as they were completely different bowlers but as much as I admired Streak as a good all round cricketer, I reckon our bespectacled Captain gets the points there too.

So my verdict is current NZ team is easily > GBG Zimbabwe team.

In fact I'm not even sure why you have to compare our current team to the Zim team, maybe the current England team would make a better comparison.
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Old 28th June 2008, 18:00   #68
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Ross Taylor ahead of Andy Flower and Jamie How ahead of Murray Goodwin? Statements like this really do suggest you know very little about cricket.
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Old 28th June 2008, 18:46   #69
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Ross Taylor ahead of Andy Flower and Jamie How ahead of Murray Goodwin? Statements like this really do suggest you know very little about cricket.
Indeed. Whilst I rate Ross Taylor highly, I may have been premature in comparing him to a former no.1 batsman in the world.
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Old 28th June 2008, 19:43   #70
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Ross Taylor ahead of Andy Flower and Jamie How ahead of Murray Goodwin? Statements like this really do suggest you know very little about cricket.
Really? I never actually said that Taylor was a better batsman than Andy Flower. I only suggested that Taylor has as much ability as him and has the potential to exceed him, which if you actually watched Taylor bat as much as I have isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Andy Flower was a gutsy and technically very sound batsman and I have the upmost respect for the bloke but I don't think he has Ross Taylor's ability to tear an attack apart like he did at Old Trafford.

Let's move on to How vs Goodwin now. I actually know quite a bit about Murray as I played for his old club in Perth, Subiaco-Floreat. Yes I played district cricket here in Perth, which I guess isn't too bad for someone who apparently knows very little about cricket . Goodwin was a talented batsman at grade level, county level and state level but like Graeme Hick he was almost always found wanting at international level. I must admit I don't know much about Jamie How personally but from what I have seen he has the technique, and most importantly, the grit and determination to succeed at international level. On that basis I would back How to have a much more successful international career than Murray Goodwin. In truth he is almost past him already.
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Old 28th June 2008, 20:13   #71
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Really? I never actually said that Taylor was a better batsman than Andy Flower. I only suggested that Taylor has as much ability as him and has the potential to exceed him, which if you actually watched Taylor bat as much as I have isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Andy Flower was a gutsy and technically very sound batsman and I have the upmost respect for the bloke but I don't think he has Ross Taylor's ability to tear an attack apart like he did at Old Trafford.

Let's move on to How vs Goodwin now. I actually know quite a bit about Murray as I played for his old club in Perth, Subiaco-Floreat. Yes I played district cricket here in Perth, which I guess isn't too bad for someone who apparently knows very little about cricket . Goodwin was a talented batsman at grade level, county level and state level but like Graeme Hick he was almost always found wanting at international level. I must admit I don't know much about Jamie How personally but from what I have seen he has the technique, and most importantly, the grit and determination to succeed at international level. On that basis I would back How to have a much more successful international career than Murray Goodwin. In truth he is almost past him already.
I know we are talking primarily about ODI, but Goodwin averaged 42 in test cricket and How averages 26. I don't think you can suggest that How has already had a better international career when he hasn't even hit a test century.
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Old 28th June 2008, 20:53   #72
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I know we are talking primarily about ODI, but Goodwin averaged 42 in test cricket and How averages 26. I don't think you can suggest that How has already had a better international career when he hasn't even hit a test century.
Well again I never actually said that How has had a better international career than Goodwin. I just said he has the potential to exceed him. Which when you realise that How is only 26 years old and Goodwin is pushing 40, it isn't really that ridiculous.
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Old 28th June 2008, 20:57   #73
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Oh isn't it?

Back on the I want Samit Patel because Swann's a bit crap (paraphrasing I know but...) Swann didn't bowl too badly today but when you compare his performace to that of Vettori's then you do begin to wonder. Only having three front line bowlers has hurt us in this series. Wonder why McCullum was playing so circumspect first up today? It was because he, Vettori and the rest of the New Zealand team were aware that if you hang on through the first twenty while Broad, SiBo and (sometimes) Jimmy are bowling and survive then you get to feast on some mediocre bowling after.
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Old 28th June 2008, 21:24   #74
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Of course I'm not, as you well know, but along with GBG I am looking at ways to improve the team. This means a wicket taking 4th bowler, rather than a holding 10 overs. If we have a spinner to do this then they're straight in. We don't, so bring in a wicket taking 4th seamer. If this is Freddy and he's fit, a decent spinner such as Swann can stay as he can bat, and Freddy's got runs in him too. If Freddy's not fit then we may need to look at a batsman who bowls some decent spin. The question is, is Samit our man? Could someone who has seen more of him than I please answer?
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I regret having mentioned Swann in this thread. Discarding him isn't dependent upon Samit Patel, I'd be perfectly comfortable upgrading Swann with a better bowler and cricketer, rather than restricting myself to a better spin bowler.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if your spinner isn't a good enough spinner, you don't play one. You instead play a better seamer.
If you have one and if you're prepared to lose the variety in your attack by doing so then fair enough. I'd be interested in notions of who this better seamer might be. Tim Bresnan would be a perfectly feasible option, as discussed elsewhere. I can't think of many others though.

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You'd need to compare him to all bowlers, not just spinners.
That would depend on what question you were trying to get an answer to, I'd have thought.

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I'm also not comfortable with projecting a good career economy rate when the games he has played in have been predominantly low-scoring games with a disproportionate number of scores under 200.
That was rather a speculative notion of mine, which I mentioned partly because it interested me for a moment but not enough to do the research so far. Of course the fact that he's played against a far from brilliant Kiwi batting line up is likely to have helped his economy but then he's also had the disadvantage of the England fast bowlers not necessarily doing that great a job in taking wickets early on, making life difficult for the middle overs bowlers. Despite this he's still taken decent numbers of wickets, at a plausible average, which is my overall point. Apart from anything else, it's an issue of operating a meritocratic selection policy. It looks horribly wrong to go picking someone who does well and then replace them because you decide that they don't have the class after all, despite their record actually supporting the initial pick. Of course, you're not one of the selectors who picked him in the first place so it's hardly as if you are personally being inconsistent but I would imagine that you do see my point.

I actually think that Swann versus not Swann sides are probably much of a muchness and can't bring myself to care deeply about it. His poor fielding certainly is an issue. Changing the side partly because you don't like the cut of a player's jib isn't my notion of selection. Perhaps that's because I'm a rather better judge of statistics than I am of players. The thing is that the selectors have the chance to see what happens in practice, the nets, the hotels etc. and we don't. I'm not mad enough to say that we just have to trust them but I do think we are relatively speaking sensible to go with their selections when they've done well.
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Old 28th June 2008, 21:56   #75
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i do understand the comparison and there are many similarities between the old Zimbabwe (particularly the one that made the super 6s back in 99), ok NZ probably are a quality player or two better off but they both have the ability to keep nagging at you, are well disciplined, good in the field, make the most use of what talent they do have and generally punch above thier wieght.

That said though the Kiwis will be fairly pleased by how some of the new guys have come along during this series such as your Ellliots and young Southee who i often forget is just 19. Also its often forgotten what a good one day batter Styris is afterall he was amoungst the leading run scorers at the world cup.

Overall though plenty of reasons for them to be positive.
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Old 28th June 2008, 22:19   #76
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Oh isn't it?

Back on the I want Samit Patel because Swann's a bit crap (paraphrasing I know but...) Swann didn't bowl too badly today but when you compare his performace to that of Vettori's then you do begin to wonder. Only having three front line bowlers has hurt us in this series. Wonder why McCullum was playing so circumspect first up today? It was because he, Vettori and the rest of the New Zealand team were aware that if you hang on through the first twenty while Broad, SiBo and (sometimes) Jimmy are bowling and survive then you get to feast on some mediocre bowling after.
10-0-33-2 to 10-1-32-3? Not so vastly different is it?
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Old 28th June 2008, 23:22   #77
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Thank you, at least someone can grasp the point I was trying to make for explaining what I meant in a way that makes sense.
I think this is what you meant.
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Old 29th June 2008, 00:22   #78
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I'm comparing the current NZ team (sans the brilliant Bond, and the very good Fleming, and various other experinced international performers like McMillan as well as Oram for most of the series) with the Zimbabwe team before it fell apart.

The number of stars in each team is similar, both teams had journeyman, but they scrapped and were very good in the field.

I'm certainly not comparing it to the ragged mob briefly led by Taibu until even he was forced out.

Something along the lines of:

R. Taylor = A. Flower
McCullum = Taibu
Styris = G. Flower
How = Goodwin
Flynn = Campbell
Mills = N. Johnson
Vettori = Streak
Gillespie=Brandes

most of the rest are forgettable.
So, Southee is forgettable/not one of their stars?

Interesting concept, considering he is a probable star of the future in both forms and a leading wicket taker in this series.

Last edited by A Newbie : 29th June 2008 at 00:33.
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Old 29th June 2008, 12:05   #79
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You'd need to compare him to all bowlers, not just spinners.
That's an interesting idea. Have you actually tried it yourself?
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Old 29th June 2008, 13:49   #80
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Really? I never actually said that Taylor was a better batsman than Andy Flower. I only suggested that Taylor has as much ability as him and has the potential to exceed him, which if you actually watched Taylor bat as much as I have isn't beyond the realms of possibility. Andy Flower was a gutsy and technically very sound batsman and I have the upmost respect for the bloke but I don't think he has Ross Taylor's ability to tear an attack apart like he did at Old Trafford.

Let's move on to How vs Goodwin now. I actually know quite a bit about Murray as I played for his old club in Perth, Subiaco-Floreat. Yes I played district cricket here in Perth, which I guess isn't too bad for someone who apparently knows very little about cricket . Goodwin was a talented batsman at grade level, county level and state level but like Graeme Hick he was almost always found wanting at international level. I must admit I don't know much about Jamie How personally but from what I have seen he has the technique, and most importantly, the grit and determination to succeed at international level. On that basis I would back How to have a much more successful international career than Murray Goodwin. In truth he is almost past him already.
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Well again I never actually said that How has had a better international career than Goodwin. I just said he has the potential to exceed him. Which when you realise that How is only 26 years old and Goodwin is pushing 40, it isn't really that ridiculous.
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