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Old 29th June 2008, 13:57   #81
Psyduck
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If you're going to go to the effort of quoting Greatbatch you should probably read his posts more clearly. Apologies for second guessing you but if the two quotes above are meant to demonstrate that he has contradicted himself then you are mistaken.

That said I happen to think GB is way off the mark on this specfic issue. Goodwin over How any day of the week, for me.
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Old 29th June 2008, 14:12   #82
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Originally Posted by Fatslogger View Post
That was rather a speculative notion of mine, which I mentioned partly because it interested me for a moment but not enough to do the research so far. Of course the fact that he's played against a far from brilliant Kiwi batting line up is likely to have helped his economy but then he's also had the disadvantage of the England fast bowlers not necessarily doing that great a job in taking wickets early on, making life difficult for the middle overs bowlers. Despite this he's still taken decent numbers of wickets, at a plausible average, which is my overall point.
On the contrary, I think he's had the benefit of the England fast bowlers having taken wickets

53/5
95/2
38/4
42/4
20/3
83/2
165/0 NZ win by 10 wickets
101/4
79/2
75/6
24/2
71/3



Quote:
Apart from anything else, it's an issue of operating a meritocratic selection policy. It looks horribly wrong to go picking someone who does well and then replace them because you decide that they don't have the class after all, despite their record actually supporting the initial pick. Of course, you're not one of the selectors who picked him in the first place so it's hardly as if you are personally being inconsistent but I would imagine that you do see my point.
I see your point, but I value ruthlessness as a selector way above being fair. Being fair, giving out England caps to people because they served their time in county cricket held English cricket back for years. What looks horrible is losing.

Quote:
I actually think that Swann versus not Swann sides are probably much of a muchness and can't bring myself to care deeply about it. His poor fielding certainly is an issue. Changing the side partly because you don't like the cut of a player's jib isn't my notion of selection.
Chris Read? Sure, the statistics backed up dropping him, but

Quote:
Perhaps that's because I'm a rather better judge of statistics than I am of players. The thing is that the selectors have the chance to see what happens in practice, the nets, the hotels etc. and we don't. I'm not mad enough to say that we just have to trust them but I do think we are relatively speaking sensible to go with their selections when they've done well.
Well I've watched England practice, seen them around the hotel in addition to having watched the games. Does that mean I'm allowed to drop him?

Anyway, can we please get this back on topic. Samit Patel for England anyone?
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Old 29th June 2008, 16:08   #83
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Originally Posted by geoff_boycotts_grandmother View Post
On the contrary, I think he's had the benefit of the England fast bowlers having taken wickets

53/5
95/2
38/4
42/4
20/3
83/2
165/0 NZ win by 10 wickets
101/4
79/2
75/6
24/2
71/3
Those will be the scores when he started bowling will they?

Quote:
I see your point, but I value ruthlessness as a selector way above being fair. Being fair, giving out England caps to people because they served their time in county cricket held English cricket back for years. What looks horrible is losing.
I'm not talking about giving out caps to muggins who had a decent county career though, I'm talking about sticking with a player you've taken a punt on who's actually done well.

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Chris Read? Sure, the statistics backed up dropping him, but
Who?

Quote:
Well I've watched England practice, seen them around the hotel in addition to having watched the games. Does that mean I'm allowed to drop him?
Yes fine, you can.

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Anyway, can we please get this back on topic. Samit Patel for England anyone?
Nah. I prefer Swann.
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Old 30th June 2008, 06:03   #84
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Yes well OK, but the NZ players you are comparing the Zim players to are still much better on the whole. Andy Flower was a class act no doubt but Ross Taylor has equally as much talent and infinitely more potential. McCullum compared to Taibu is like comparing Bradman to Chris Martin whilst I would pick Styris, How and Flynn ahead of G Flower, Goodwin and Campbell any day of the week. Don't know much about N Johnson or Brandes to be honest but I would be confident that Mills and Gillespie would at least hold their own against them if not edge them for ability. Hard to compare Streak with Vettori as they were completely different bowlers but as much as I admired Streak as a good all round cricketer, I reckon our bespectacled Captain gets the points there too.

So my verdict is current NZ team is easily > GBG Zimbabwe team.

In fact I'm not even sure why you have to compare our current team to the Zim team, maybe the current England team would make a better comparison.
Although i agree with you, and think GBG's attempt to even compare those players is utterly ridiculous i do think you are incorrect about Taylor having as much talent and infinate more potential than A.Flower! Just Kiwi bias AGAIN i am afraid. Same with Goodwin and How.
Flower was one of the best batsmen in the world for some considerable time, he was just an unbelievable talent. Although Taylor is decent with plenty of potential, he will NEVER be in the same league as Flower - not many are.

I would say though apart from Oram and Streak being of similar ability and Flower being head and shoulders ahead of any Kiwi, the rest of the current Kiwi team is quite considerably some what better than the Zimbabwe team.
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Old 30th June 2008, 12:15   #85
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Although i agree with you, and think GBG's attempt to even compare those players is utterly ridiculous i do think you are incorrect about Taylor having as much talent and infinate more potential than A.Flower! Just Kiwi bias AGAIN i am afraid. Same with Goodwin and How.
Flower was one of the best batsmen in the world for some considerable time, he was just an unbelievable talent. Although Taylor is decent with plenty of potential, he will NEVER be in the same league as Flower - not many are.

I would say though apart from Oram and Streak being of similar ability and Flower being head and shoulders ahead of any Kiwi, the rest of the current Kiwi team is quite considerably some what better than the Zimbabwe team.
Well again I never said Andy Flower wasn't a fine, talented batsman but I still think Taylor has the talent to at least go close to matching him providing he can learn to be a bit more disciplined at times. After all Taylor is still only quite young at 24 and so has plenty of time left to improve and he has already shown what he is capable of with the two centuries he scored against England in the tests. By the end of his career I would expect him to be up there with Martin Crowe as one of the all time leading NZ batsmen. I'm not sure what Andy Flower's international record was like at 24 but I'm guessing Taylor would be ahead of him at the same stage.

Likewise How is probably not quite up to Goodwin's standard or international record just yet but at just 26 he still has plenty of time to catch up to Goodwin or even go past him. It's always hard to compare players who are in different stages of their careers though, both Taylor and How are only in the early stages of their international careers whilst both Flower and Goodwin's international careers are over. We will really need to wait until Taylor and How's careers are finished before making any true comparisons.

Apologies for derailing this thread once again by the way, not that I actually know anything about Samit Patel anyway.
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Old 30th June 2008, 12:27   #86
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Well again I never said Andy Flower wasn't a fine, talented batsman but I still think Taylor has the talent to at least go close to matching him providing he can learn to be a bit more disciplined at times. After all Taylor is still only quite young at 24 and so has plenty of time left to improve and he has already shown what he is capable of with the two centuries he scored against England in the tests. By the end of his career I would expect him to be up there with Martin Crowe as one of the all time leading NZ batsmen. I'm not sure what Andy Flower's international record was like at 24 but I'm guessing Taylor would be ahead of him at the same stage.

Likewise How is probably not quite up to Goodwin's standard or international record just yet but at just 26 he still has plenty of time to catch up to Goodwin or even go past him. It's always hard to compare players who are in different stages of their careers though, both Taylor and How are only in the early stages of their international careers whilst both Flower and Goodwin's international careers are over. We will really need to wait until Taylor and How's careers are finished before making any true comparisons.

Apologies for derailing this thread once again by the way, not that I actually know anything about Samit Patel anyway.
I do love those rose tinted's, almost as much as your avatar and "justice" written below it. Are you suggestion England cheated?

You certainly hold some very high hopes for Taylor, Flower averaged 52 in what was a terrible side that lost nearly every game, i'd be suprised if Taylor will even average much into the 40's by the end of his career.

Anyway back on subject....Swann did very well again in the last game and i quite like him in the ODI side, Patel has a very bright future though, don't know if it will be as an allrounder.
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Old 30th June 2008, 12:28   #87
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Flower also reached number one in the world test batting rankings so Taylor has a tough act to follow.
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Old 30th June 2008, 13:38   #88
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I do love those rose tinted's, almost as much as your avatar and "justice" written below it. Are you suggestion England cheated?

You certainly hold some very high hopes for Taylor, Flower averaged 52 in what was a terrible side that lost nearly every game, i'd be suprised if Taylor will even average much into the 40's by the end of his career.

Anyway back on subject....Swann did very well again in the last game and i quite like him in the ODI side, Patel has a very bright future though, don't know if it will be as an allrounder.
Well I don't think my rose tinted NZ glasses are really any rosier than your England ones or other peoples here, after all we all tend to favour our own team's players to a certain extent. Glad you like the avatar, the justice comment below was just a reference to the Oval match and was slightly tongue in cheek. I wasn't actually suggesting England cheated by it but just that I thought we deserved to win it after overcoming all the odds, I'll probably change it soon anyway if it makes you happy.

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Flower also reached number one in the world test batting rankings so Taylor has a tough act to follow.
Well I have always thought that the ICC rankings are a bit overrated to be honest, sure they can give a pretty good guide to players ability or performance but it isn't always a true reflection. After all a lot of very good players have never reached the No.1 ranking for various reasons, not that I don't think Taylor doesn't have the ability to get to the No.1 batting ranking in the future but I don't think it is necessarily the be all and end all when it comes to rating players.
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Old 30th June 2008, 17:01   #89
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Well I don't think my rose tinted NZ glasses are really any rosier than your England ones or other peoples here, after all we all tend to favour our own team's players to a certain extent. Glad you like the avatar, the justice comment below was just a reference to the Oval match and was slightly tongue in cheek. I wasn't actually suggesting England cheated by it but just that I thought we deserved to win it after overcoming all the odds, I'll probably change it soon anyway if it makes you happy.
Plenty of England fans have rose tinted glasses but some actually adopt the opposite approach, a bit like you and Elliott (although you seemed to have a case there, I admit, until he rather bafflingly turned out to be of some use).

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Well I have always thought that the ICC rankings are a bit overrated to be honest, sure they can give a pretty good guide to players ability or performance but it isn't always a true reflection. After all a lot of very good players have never reached the No.1 ranking for various reasons, not that I don't think Taylor doesn't have the ability to get to the No.1 batting ranking in the future but I don't think it is necessarily the be all and end all when it comes to rating players.
They have some slight failings and certainly don't predict the future, nor even offer that great an insight into how good up and coming players are now. Still, they're a very useful tool. No player to have made it to number 1 was anything other than very very good indeed at the time they did so. Some of them fall back rather sharply thereafter mind, thinking particularly of the only two Englishmen to manage top spot in the recent past, Vaughan and Harmison.
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Old 15th July 2008, 19:14   #90
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I realise I've just missed a chance to compare Swann and Patel. Patel appears to have outbowled Swann looking at the figures, but having not watched it its diffcult to know.
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Old 15th July 2008, 19:24   #91
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I suspect most Notts fan will concur with me how absurd we find it anyone can call for Read to be nowhere near the England team but for Patel to be in it!
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Old 15th July 2008, 22:34   #92
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I suspect most Notts fan will concur with me how absurd we find it anyone can call for Read to be nowhere near the England team but for Patel to be in it!
I'd ask you why but I'd be frightened you might tell me.
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Old 15th July 2008, 22:35   #93
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I suspect most Notts fan will concur with me how absurd we find it anyone can call for Read to be nowhere near the England team but for Patel to be in it!
Why?
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Old 15th July 2008, 22:36   #94
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La, la, la, la, I'm not listening.
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Old 16th July 2008, 16:11   #95
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Well, good to see him on the England radar.
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Old 4th August 2008, 14:41   #96
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Has been called-up.

It will be interesting to see how much he bowls, particularly with the captain offering an alternative spin option.

Incidentally, was Samit Patel playing for Notts when KP was there? I seem to remember him being a precocious talent, but can't remember the timing.
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Old 4th August 2008, 14:44   #97
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Patel's bowling is surprisingly good. He didn't look any worse than Swann last week while I was watching at Trent Bridge.
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Old 4th August 2008, 14:45   #98
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Incidentally, was Samit Patel playing for Notts when KP was there? I seem to remember him being a precocious talent, but can't remember the timing.
Yes, although not with any regularity.

His rise might be quite quick if his time with the England squad brings a sprinkling of professionalism to his game. An average of 45 isn't to be sniffed at and his bowling may tempt the selectors...
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Old 4th August 2008, 14:55   #99
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Patel's bowling is surprisingly good. He didn't look any worse than Swann last week while I was watching at Trent Bridge.
Hmm, the phrase 'damned with faint praise' springs to mind.

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Yes, although not with any regularity.

His rise might be quite quick if his time with the England squad brings a sprinkling of professionalism to his game. An average of 45 isn't to be sniffed at and his bowling may tempt the selectors...
Exactly. That is one of the reasons I'm keen for players like Patel to be included, so they can get a taste for international cricket and see the levels required - both in terms of ability but also dedication, preparation etc.

Last edited by geoff_boycotts_grandmother : 4th August 2008 at 16:09.
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Old 4th August 2008, 16:02   #100
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Hmm, the phrase 'damned with feint praise' springs to mind.
Does it? You've sold me a fake there.
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