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Old 13th July 2017, 11:46   #441
DanielVettoriSpin
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Originally Posted by Psyduck View Post
I'm no expert but it's a bit more complicated than the colour of the players skin; it is their ethnic lineage.
Just like with players counted as Maori in NZ.

Otherwise, why would you ever have had Paul Tito playing for the NZ Maori:

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Old 13th July 2017, 12:32   #442
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That's Johnny Bairstow, no?
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Old 13th July 2017, 12:47   #443
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I'm no expert but it's a bit more complicated than the colour of the players skin; it is their ethnic lineage.

You couldn't be more wrong on your final point.
Why not? The quote system as it stands was only introduced in int cricket in 2016 and when you can have white players (whatever their lineage may be) from private schools getting in and filling that quota, then there's somethin seriously wrong.

That's wht I believe finances of the poeple within the quota system also need to be taken into account.

Anyway, don't wana have this discussion during a test series thread. Kinda sours the whole thing.
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Old 13th July 2017, 12:48   #444
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That looks like Ron Weasley if he had had a really rough couple of years
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Old 13th July 2017, 13:40   #445
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Hopefully, the time will come when ability will be the most important criterion, as seems to be the case amongst all other test playing nations.
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Old 13th July 2017, 14:02   #446
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Hopefully, the time will come when ability will be the most important criterion, as seems to be the case amongst all other test playing nations.
I'm not sure about that at all. For example, I very much doubt it's the case here, and I think it's a rather weird thing to suggest, given that this country is massively and famously stitched up against meritocracy. As far as I know, the only real reason anyone has offered for the fact that Alastair Cook became England captain was that he was from the right kind of family. The same seems to be the case with Root. I think most people passively accept that that's the only practically viable criterion in our current cultural context. That's how money works, that's how politics works, that's how the establishment works, so why wouldn't it be how cricket works? Most of the English people who have an interest in cricket or who play cricket are of Asian descent, but a system is in place that ensures those who get to represent the country are overwhelmingly white. Sons of test players are massively more likely to get to play test cricket than anyone else. Sure, the people picked to play for England are able; but that ability has been nurtured and highlighted where that of others has been gently allowed to or encouraged to fail. One way of thinking about it might be to imagine that there is a quota system here too, but that it's been in place for so long and has been so well supported by accompanying systems that it is fully compatible with the trumpeted idea that the team is picked on merit.
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Old 13th July 2017, 15:02   #447
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How ability is achieved is, of course, an entirely separate matter. However it is achieved, it is ability that most test playing nations use when selecting their teams.

I'd challenge some of those assertions, particularly the one that says "most of the English people who have an interest in cricket or who play cricket are of Asian descent". That is almost certainly not the case. It is the sort of assertion that discourages one from expending effort on further debate and which may detract from other assertions, more reasonable in nature, that may have been made.
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Old 13th July 2017, 15:11   #448
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I'm not sure about that at all. For example, I very much doubt it's the case here, and I think it's a rather weird thing to suggest, given that this country is massively and famously stitched up against meritocracy. As far as I know, the only real reason anyone has offered for the fact that Alastair Cook became England captain was that he was from the right kind of family. The same seems to be the case with Root. I think most people passively accept that that's the only practically viable criterion in our current cultural context. That's how money works, that's how politics works, that's how the establishment works, so why wouldn't it be how cricket works? Most of the English people who have an interest in cricket or who play cricket are of Asian descent, but a system is in place that ensures those who get to represent the country are overwhelmingly white. Sons of test players are massively more likely to get to play test cricket than anyone else. Sure, the people picked to play for England are able; but that ability has been nurtured and highlighted where that of others has been gently allowed to or encouraged to fail. One way of thinking about it might be to imagine that there is a quota system here too, but that it's been in place for so long and has been so well supported by accompanying systems that it is fully compatible with the trumpeted idea that the team is picked on merit.


When you are the beneficiary of privilege it is often nvisible to you (and I speak as a beneficiary).
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Old 13th July 2017, 15:28   #449
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When you are the beneficiary of privilege it is often nvisible to you (and I speak as a beneficiary).
The idea that most people who play and follow cricket are of Asian decent is plainly ridiculous, which is where it falls down.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:07   #450
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As is the idea that the best England players all come from a background of privilege.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:11   #451
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I'm no expert but it's a bit more complicated than the colour of the players skin; it is their ethnic lineage.
That's what I was referring to re de Kock tbh
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:13   #452
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The idea that most people who play and follow cricket are of Asian decent is plainly ridiculous, which is where it falls down.
Indeed.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:16   #453
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The idea that most people who play and follow cricket are of Asian decent is plainly ridiculous, which is where it falls down.
Possibly not one of Sans's best

About 4% of the UK population is of Asian decent, and just having Mo in the team puts the Asian 'quota' at 9% in the current England team, and it was 27% in the previous Test they played.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:27   #454
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Hopefully, the time will come when ability will be the most important criterion, as seems to be the case amongst all other test playing nations.
That is, I would say, something 90% of us on here would agree with. Would it have not been more sensible (Sensible from a cricketing board? - rather a contradiction in terms perhaps) to do this. The CSA board should have imposed these rules on the provinces, not on the national team. "Ability" must be demonstrated.

On to tomorrow.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:40   #455
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That is, I would say, something 90% of us on here would agree with. Would it have not been more sensible (Sensible from a cricketing board? - rather a contradiction in terms perhaps) to do this. The CSA board should have imposed these rules on the provinces, not on the national team. "Ability" must be demonstrated.

On to tomorrow.
It has been imposed on regional sides, clubs and even school level too, and across many sports.
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Old 13th July 2017, 16:41   #456
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Hopefully, the time will come when ability will be the most important criterion, as seems to be the case amongst all other test playing nations.
That is, I would say, something 90% of us on here would agree with. Would it have not been more sensible (Sensible from a cricketing board? - rather a contradiction in terms perhaps) to do this. The CSA board should have imposed these rules on the provinces, not on the national team. "Ability" must be demonstrated. "Opportunity" should be considered more.

On to tomorrow, I say.
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Old 13th July 2017, 17:17   #457
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One would hope England never go down a quota route - not even an unofficial one.

One would hope Saffers would eventually ditch the quota rule as it isn't needed.

Selection on merit only.
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Old 13th July 2017, 19:22   #458
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... One would hope Saffers would eventually ditch the quota rule as it isn't needed.

Selection on merit only.
There's presumably also the school of thought that says the quota system is in place in order to counteract the entrenched and longstanding bias within SA cricket that would otherwise disallow selection on grounds of merit alone -- i.e., without the quota system, the team would be suboptimal in terms of quality but would at least be largely white.
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Old 13th July 2017, 19:53   #459
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One would hope England never go down a quota route - not even an unofficial one.

One would hope Saffers would eventually ditch the quota rule as it isn't needed.

Selection on merit only.
In which case, you would do well to follow your own advice when it comes to discussing one of our best batsmen in the current side and greatest all-rounders of all time.
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Old 13th July 2017, 22:48   #460
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There's presumably also the school of thought that says the quota system is in place in order to counteract the entrenched and longstanding bias within SA cricket that would otherwise disallow selection on grounds of merit alone -- i.e., without the quota system, the team would be suboptimal in terms of quality but would at least be largely white.
I think that probably takes it too far, because the entrenched and longstanding bias within SA cricket means that the non white players have been disadvanted enough that you don't additionally need racist selections for the national team to keep it mostly white. I do think it's funny that people with no experience of that kind of entrenched advantage to a race other than their own should be so quick to dismiss any way to rectify the issue though.

Also worth pointing out that the "quota" selections, calling them Amla, Bavuma, De Kock, Philander, Maharaj and Rabada, were hardly the make weight players in the SA XI in the last test.
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