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Old 14th July 2017, 04:53   #461
DanielVettoriSpin
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Worth asking the question in my opinion. Indigenous representation in NZ cricket is very low (Ryder and Parore the most obvious selections from Maoridom; Taylor from Pasifika with a couple of other occasional selections) and some might think that the treatment afforded to Jesse Ryder might have been somewhat different to a white NZer in the same circumstances, there may well be an issue to deal with. Not necessarily sure a quota is the best way to deal with it, but if entrenched institutional bias exists, then it should be dealt with.
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Old 14th July 2017, 09:26   #462
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Possibly not one of Sans's best

About 4% of the UK population is of Asian decent, and just having Mo in the team puts the Asian 'quota' at 9% in the current England team, and it was 27% in the previous Test they played.
I don't think this is the relevant statistic. Asians as a percentage of say regular club cricketers in the UK would be more relevant. Which may well be 4% as well of course, I have no idea, but that's a more useful comparison.

As regards assessing the percentage of Asians in the England team, I'd say looking at the last 50 or 100 England games and the percentage of Asian players would be a better comparison. Yes it was 27% in the last Test but that includes Ansari who only played a few games for England before retiring (and Hameed who was playing before that has only played a few too).

Course with Moeen being a regular across formats and Rashid established in the ODI side, it'll be a pretty decent percentage no doubt. And as an external observer it certainly seems like Asians are increasingly represented in the England sides over the last 10 years. Its a different matter why some like Bopara, Shah, Mahmood etc. didn't make it despite significant natural gifts but then you can say the same about any number of white players too. Just the nature of the beast.
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Old 14th July 2017, 09:34   #463
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Not necessarily sure a quota is the best way to deal with it, but if entrenched institutional bias exists, then it should be dealt with.
Which is really the crux of the issue in the South Africa case - the historical and institutional oppression of certain races has been so severe that extreme steps just have to be taken to even to begin redressing those inequalities. Yes, that means a system that is not entirely fair for some white players in this generation who suffer for no fault of their own. But that's life.
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Old 14th July 2017, 10:16   #464
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I don't think this is the relevant statistic. Asians as a percentage of say regular club cricketers in the UK would be more relevant. Which may well be 4% as well of course, I have no idea, but that's a more useful comparison.

As regards assessing the percentage of Asians in the England team, I'd say looking at the last 50 or 100 England games and the percentage of Asian players would be a better comparison. Yes it was 27% in the last Test but that includes Ansari who only played a few games for England before retiring (and Hameed who was playing before that has only played a few too).

Course with Moeen being a regular across formats and Rashid established in the ODI side, it'll be a pretty decent percentage no doubt. And as an external observer it certainly seems like Asians are increasingly represented in the England sides over the last 10 years. Its a different matter why some like Bopara, Shah, Mahmood etc. didn't make it despite significant natural gifts but then you can say the same about any number of white players too. Just the nature of the beast.
I'm less convinced that it is so simply "c'est la vie". As you say, a lot of highly talented Asian cricketers broke through yet never established themselves, also a few black players. What I found unusual was how many of those players had big question marks over their temperament, from Monty's mental health issues to Shah being too lazy. I'm not suggesting they have been deliberately discriminated against but it has long established that English cricket has a very regimented, narrow, non-diverse view at the top and in such an environment, those from other cultural backgrounds may find it hard to fit in.
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Old 14th July 2017, 10:36   #465
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I'm less convinced that it is so simply "c'est la vie". As you say, a lot of highly talented Asian cricketers broke through yet never established themselves, also a few black players. What I found unusual was how many of those players had big question marks over their temperament, from Monty's mental health issues to Shah being too lazy. I'm not suggesting they have been deliberately discriminated against but it has long established that English cricket has a very regimented, narrow, non-diverse view at the top and in such an environment, those from other cultural backgrounds may find it hard to fit in.
I buy the cricketing arguments against Rashid, but I must admit I find the muttering about face not fitting a bit troubling.
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Old 14th July 2017, 17:24   #466
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I buy the cricketing arguments against Rashid, but I must admit I find the muttering about face not fitting a bit troubling.
My muttering or others'?
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Old 14th July 2017, 17:29   #467
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I buy the cricketing arguments against Rashid, but I must admit I find the muttering about face not fitting a bit troubling.
Eh ?

You suggesting it's racist that Ali has been favoured over Rashid ?
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Old 14th July 2017, 19:31   #468
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Old 14th July 2017, 19:44   #469
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I'm less convinced that it is so simply "c'est la vie". As you say, a lot of highly talented Asian cricketers broke through yet never established themselves, also a few black players. What I found unusual was how many of those players had big question marks over their temperament, from Monty's mental health issues to Shah being too lazy. I'm not suggesting they have been deliberately discriminated against but it has long established that English cricket has a very regimented, narrow, non-diverse view at the top and in such an environment, those from other cultural backgrounds may find it hard to fit in.
I do take your point and always tough if not impossible to comment on these sorts of things without being part of the setup in the country, leave alone for an outsider like me.

However, just playing devil's advocate here, the counter to this point would be Moeen Ali, who is probably more vocal and public about his religious and political views than most (whether brown/black/white, really), but is clearly carving out a pretty decent international career (regardless of straw man arguments around the imaginary English Shane Warne that he is keeping out that some like to propagate). Or maybe his success is an outcome of improvements in the management & understanding of other cultures/backgrounds?

Also, and again playing devil's advocate here, one wonders how much the narrow views at the top are around culture v class - e.g., the ex-ECB chairman finding it appropriate to publicly back Alastair Cook's leadership on the basis that he was from the right sort of family might be perceived as discriminatory by a number of white cricketers too, I imagine.
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Old 14th July 2017, 20:10   #470
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I do take your point and always tough if not impossible to comment on these sorts of things without being part of the setup in the country, leave alone for an outsider like me.

However, just playing devil's advocate here, the counter to this point would be Moeen Ali, who is probably more vocal and public about his religious and political views than most (whether brown/black/white, really), but is clearly carving out a pretty decent international career (regardless of straw man arguments around the imaginary English Shane Warne that he is keeping out that some like to propagate). Or maybe his success is an outcome of improvements in the management & understanding of other cultures/backgrounds?

Also, and again playing devil's advocate here, one wonders how much the narrow views at the top are around culture v class - e.g., the ex-ECB chairman finding it appropriate to publicly back Alastair Cook's leadership on the basis that he was from the right sort of family might be perceived as discriminatory by a number of white cricketers too, I imagine.
Well the England dressing room has long been described as clique-y by many former white players! It's probably not the only clique-y changing room either.
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Old 14th July 2017, 20:34   #471
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Well the England dressing room has long been described as clique-y by many former white players! It's probably not the only clique-y changing room either.
I doubt there's any dressing room in the world without cliques. India's is full of them (and whatever the challenges in the England cricket setup, there are pretty small fry compared to the vicious political cesspool that is the BCCI), Pakistan is even worse and I remember SA having the powerful Smith/Kallis/Boucher led clique a few years ago.

Its in fact pretty natural in any work setting with people from different backgrounds (and again not just race) and not always harmful or divisive either. But it has the potential to be of course.
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Old 15th July 2017, 11:33   #472
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Possibly not one of Sans's best

About 4% of the UK population is of Asian decent, and just having Mo in the team puts the Asian 'quota' at 9% in the current England team, and it was 27% in the previous Test they played.
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There's presumably also the school of thought that says the quota system is in place in order to counteract the entrenched and longstanding bias within SA cricket that would otherwise disallow selection on grounds of merit alone -- i.e., without the quota system, the team would be suboptimal in terms of quality but would at least be largely white.
Perhaps we can add the above comment to the long list. To suggest that cricket administration in South Africa has not changed its attitude to selection since apartheid, quota system or not, is clearly preposterous.
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Old 15th July 2017, 13:59   #473
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... To suggest that cricket administration in South Africa has not changed its attitude to selection since apartheid, quota system or not, is clearly preposterous.
Or at least you think it would be, were anyone to do such a thing. For my part, I just imagined there might be someone who had.
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Old 15th July 2017, 16:52   #474
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I refer you to one of your previous posts and invite you to refresh your memory.
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Old 16th July 2017, 19:51   #475
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I refer you to one of your previous posts and invite you to refresh your memory.
He never said anything of the sort, did he? You've not quoted said post, I see.
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Old 17th July 2017, 09:53   #476
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Old 17th July 2017, 16:20   #477
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There's presumably also the school of thought that says the quota system is in place in order to counteract the entrenched and longstanding bias within SA cricket that would otherwise disallow selection on grounds of merit alone -- i.e., without the quota system, the team would be suboptimal in terms of quality but would at least be largely white.
Doesn't remotely support your assertion. He didn't say attitude to selection was unchanged from Apartheid, just that it is still biased.
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Old 17th July 2017, 16:27   #478
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There's presumably also the school of thought that says
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Old 18th July 2017, 09:05   #479
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Doesn't remotely support your assertion. He didn't say attitude to selection was unchanged from Apartheid, just that it is still biased.
Very well done on penetrating the so often impenetrable (if, indeed, that is what you have done).

It must have taken quite a long time too, so more plaudits to you.
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Old 18th July 2017, 17:18   #480
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Very well done on penetrating the so often impenetrable (if, indeed, that is what you have done).

It must have taken quite a long time too, so more plaudits to you.
Thanks. It was pretty easy to interpret, in fact. Odd that you were so adamant about what Sans was saying if you really had no idea though.
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