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Old 9th August 2015, 20:22   #61
Ali TT
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I would go for Browne from Essex. A bit left field but someone who is in good form and has the potential to get better. Alex Lees would also be a decent option, it's a shame he hasn't found form this season or he would probably be playing now.
That's the problem of basing the decision upon county form. We should have learnt this lesson from the failures of Compton, Robson and now, it seems, Lyth who have been selected based upon county form but found to the technically wanting internationally.
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Old 9th August 2015, 20:30   #62
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That's the problem of basing the decision upon county form. We should have learnt this lesson from the failures of Compton, Robson and now, it seems, Lyth who have been selected based upon county form but found to the technically wanting internationally.
But if you don't base it on County form then how do you decide which players are selected? You have to reward good form. If a player is top run scorer or wicket taker they deserve a call up. You have to look at technique but if they are performing at county level then they should be best equipped to perform at international level.
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Old 9th August 2015, 21:20   #63
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But if you don't base it on County form then how do you decide which players are selected? You have to reward good form. If a player is top run scorer or wicket taker they deserve a call up. You have to look at technique but if they are performing at county level then they should be best equipped to perform at international level.
Fallen into a big fallacy trap there. The two games are not the same and there are clearly certain players whose style and technique are well matched to the county game but would never make it internationally.

And anyhow, you can't just pick on form, because as the example of Alex Hales shows its comes and goes. Is Hales less selectable now after a lean spell than he was in May when he was piling on the runs?
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Old 9th August 2015, 21:26   #64
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Fallen into a big fallacy trap there. The two games are not the same and there are clearly certain players whose style and technique are well matched to the county game but would never make it internationally.

And anyhow, you can't just pick on form, because as the example of Alex Hales shows its comes and goes. Is Hales less selectable now after a lean spell than he was in May when he was piling on the runs?
Players who perform well in the County game over a long period of time should get the chance to play internationally. Obviously you have to take other factors into account, such as which ground they play the majority of their cricket at, but if a player like Bairstow or Footit performs well over a long period of time he should get to play for England.

When selecting on form, in the case of Hales, at the start of the season when he was performing well there was more of a clamour for him to play for England at Test level. As you say, other things have to be taken into account, and I'm not sure Hales would be successful at Test level based on the fact he is good at attacking county bowlers and has never come across real pace before.
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Old 9th August 2015, 21:33   #65
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Alex Hales will have come across more "real pace" before than any other county alternative (Lees, Robson, Browne, Lyth before this Summer etc).

Bairstow was first selected based upon potential, not a long period of time performing at the county level. Footitt may get a go, but this last week may have been his sole promotion to the big boys. Browne and Lees haven't really performed over a long period of time either (you are calling the first out based upon a recent purple patch, and the latter based upon his potential as a youngster who did well last season).

Do you think the likes of Hildreth, Stevens, Chopra, Roland-Jones, Masters, Wright etc should get England caps? Perhaps as some kind of long service reward?
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Old 9th August 2015, 21:42   #66
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Yes Hales has come across real pace and has done fantastic so far, with a sole fifty to his name. It's ok swinging at everything in T20 cricket, you need to have more technique to play the longer form of the game.

I think Hildreth and Roland Jones could have done a job for England, but their chance has probably passed now.
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Old 9th August 2015, 22:07   #67
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Yes Hales has come across real pace and has done fantastic so far, with a sole fifty to his name. It's ok swinging at everything in T20 cricket, you need to have more technique to play the longer form of the game.

I think Hildreth and Roland Jones could have done a job for England, but their chance has probably passed now.
Swinging at everything or not, that's still more experience against "real pace" than any of the other alternatives in the county game. I actually share your reservations about him in the longer format, but I think he's still one of the better options at the moment if we look outside the current squad.

Any complimentary comments about Hales do seem to rile some posters on here though, not really sure why. You are usually overly positive about all English players, yet don't seem to want to give him any credit.
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Old 10th August 2015, 08:37   #68
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That's the problem of basing the decision upon county form. ....
Perhaps then, when deciding who might be worth a go at test cricket, instead of looking at county players, we should be looking at players in the local leagues.
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Old 10th August 2015, 14:33   #69
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Any complimentary comments about Hales do seem to rile some posters on here though, not really sure why. You are usually overly positive about all English players, yet don't seem to want to give him any credit.
I wouldn't say complimentary comments rile me. People seem to get more excited about players when they play in an aggressive manner. He's a very good one day player, but if he wasn't known as being a big hitter would people be so desperate to get him in the Test side?
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Old 10th August 2015, 17:41   #70
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Perhaps then, when deciding who might be worth a go at test cricket, instead of looking at county players, we should be looking at players in the local leagues.
Form is the important word in that sentence
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Old 10th August 2015, 17:44   #71
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I wouldn't say complimentary comments rile me. People seem to get more excited about players when they play in an aggressive manner. He's a very good one day player, but if he wasn't known as being a big hitter would people be so desperate to get him in the Test side?
I don't know. People are also keen on Taylor, whose county form (italics for others benefit) isn't particularly great, nor is he a big hitter. I think Hales gets attention because he's played international cricket so is known to the pundits.
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Old 10th August 2015, 22:57   #72
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He's never ready for test cricket. That's common knowledge to Notts' fans.

Is anyone of any importance actually suggesting he is?
Nick Knight, so that will be a no then.
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Old 12th August 2015, 11:11   #73
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That's the problem of basing the decision upon county form. ...
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Perhaps then, when deciding who might be worth a go at test cricket, instead of looking at county players, we should be looking at players in the local leagues.
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Form is the important word in that sentence
Glad you made it clear. People may have thought it was an aspect of a player's association with a county other than form that would be important.
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Old 12th August 2015, 12:18   #74
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Form perhaps not, ability I would say he has. Who do you think are better alternatives?
Now there are none but I would wager Jake Libby will be discussed in the next year or so.
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Old 12th August 2015, 12:28   #75
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Tresco was picked because he was "rated" by Fletcher.
I doubt if Vaughans FC record was much superior to Hales' when selected - it certainly did not demand he was to be picked.
I am old enough to remember Steele being selected on judgement.
Certainly doesn't always work - Lathwell?
I am not qualified enough to know if Hales has the right technique, he certainly appears to have the right temperament. Personally I believe Lythe should be persevered with, if not then I would imagine Hales would be given an opportunity.
Stoneman at Durham has a decent record and is used to "challenging" conditions but I have never really seen him play, another from left field would be Wells at Sussex - not great figures but has always seemed to have something about him?
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Old 12th August 2015, 17:17   #76
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Glad you made it clear. People may have thought it was an aspect of a player's association with a county other than form that would be important.
One county more than others, no doubt
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Old 12th August 2015, 17:50   #77
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Hales scored 230 odd against the best attack in the country too. Jack Brooks says they hadn't a clue how or where to bowl at him. Has he the ability? For sure. Does it mean he'll do it if given the chance? Not necessarily, plenty fail when given the chance to make the step up.

In 50 overs cricket for Notts I have seen him make good scores but not convert them into monsters often because he's seemingly bored. His method is very much not "hit everything" in fact he takes his time early on far ore than many openers in the shorter forms. For this reason he was never a good partner for Cook but works well with Lumb or Wessels at Notts and Roy or possibly Moeen with England.

Bayliss will get his opportunity to watch him closely at the end of the summer when the Tests are done and dusted. I am sure he's heard plenty from those who play with him (Bayliss will probably know Michael Lumb from the Sydney Sixers) and against him already.
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Old 12th August 2015, 19:24   #78
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It was Tresco's showing in limited overs which first attracted Duncan Fletcher to his suitability to step up to playing test cricket, so perhaps Hales has a rather ideal and timely opportunity to stake a claim similarly against the might of the World Cup champions.
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Old 12th August 2015, 22:28   #79
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I remember the clamour in the press to get Lathwell in the team. Anyone would have thought this guy was something special judging by the rave reviews he was getting. Lo and behold he lasts a few tests and is binned. Could be wrong but wasn't he another player constantly playing across the line? A technique that had served him reliably in the county game. He joined a hoard of other county flat track bullies in sadly never making the cut at international level. Bailey, Moxon, Stephenson amongst others were extremely prolific county players who were sitting ducks when it came to the highest level. Seem to recall loads of prolific county players consistently racking up the runs (in the days of ceefax and teletext) but never getting close to getting a run in the England team.

I'd still argue that those batsmen who have been regular fixtures in the England side during the last 10-15 years looked at home from day one. Bell struggled a little to start with being an exception. Maybe its just speed of thought or other mental edge that gave them what they needed to succeed.

Mark Butcher made a very valid point on the verdict the other night. He stated that England players need to more or less be the finished article when they are representing England. Test Cricket is no place to learn your trade.

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Old 12th August 2015, 23:40   #80
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Yet, Mark Butcher himself struggled in his first run of tests for England, when he opened. When he got another try, this time at 3, he prospered and that is the successful version of the player that we remember.
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