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Old 25th July 2011, 21:16   #61
geoff_boycotts_grandmother
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Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
Couple of stinkers from Billy later on today. But it's worth noting that UDRS wouldn't have changed anything because England wouldn't have had any referrals left. They'd definitely have referred the early LBW shout from Broad on Gambhir which pitched marginally outside the line, so one lost. They'd then have referred the caught behind which they did refer and no evidence of the nick was forthcoming so 2 down and none left to correct Billy's stinkers.
Actually I don't think they would have referred the caught behind if lbws were in scope. With lbws not included a referral is far less valuable so you lose little on a speculative referral like that caught behind.

Incidentally, snicko suggested there was an edge.

Last edited by geoff_boycotts_grandmother : 25th July 2011 at 21:19. Reason: I see MM was thinking exactly the same as me.
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Old 25th July 2011, 22:39   #62
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Incompetent umpiring such as that displayed by Billy Bowden today has no place on the village cricket field, let alone the international arena. It would have been an utter travesty if Tendulkar had gone on to get a big score after his reprieve, or if Raina had managed to bat out the rest of the day after is. DRS must be used in all international matches with immediate effect, with a long term view to removing all responsibility from on-field human umpires (I can't yet conceive how that would work, but it must be the long term goal).

Regarding Bowden, I have never rated him as an umpire, and particularly resent his attention-seeking histrionics. The game ain't about you pal, and if you are going to behave like that, you better make sure you are the best in the business - which he palpably isn't.
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Old 26th July 2011, 08:44   #63
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Incompetent umpiring such as that displayed by Billy Bowden today has no place on the village cricket field, let alone the international arena. It would have been an utter travesty if Tendulkar had gone on to get a big score after his reprieve, or if Raina had managed to bat out the rest of the day after is. DRS must be used in all international matches with immediate effect, with a long term view to removing all responsibility from on-field human umpires (I can't yet conceive how that would work, but it must be the long term goal).

Regarding Bowden, I have never rated him as an umpire, and particularly resent his attention-seeking histrionics. The game ain't about you pal, and if you are going to behave like that, you better make sure you are the best in the business - which he palpably isn't.
Elven, good to see you about as always but the the last part of the first paragraph (removing all responsibility from on-field umpires) is a little extreme. Granted those two non-decisions made Bowden look silly and indeed only strengthened the case for DRS, but the marginal decisions aren't enhanced or derided by DRS. For instance a couple of decisions by Dar, the one that pitched outside leg marginally and the caught behind reviews (one which may have nicked according to snicko, which isn't of course part of the review process) suggests that most of the time the umpires get it right.

Like you I'd go for UDRS but not at the total expense of any impact of the on-field umpire.
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Old 26th July 2011, 08:51   #64
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i was never much of a fan of URDS, but in recent months I have become a convert - those 2 Billy Bowden stinkers would have been reversed, so the right decision would have been made - thats the main advantage for me - it eliminates the really poor decision
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Old 26th July 2011, 09:32   #65
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I must admit I don't always read articles about the politics of cricket but am I right in thinking that India don't like the tracking element of technology and that is the reason we don't have DRS for lbw decisions ?

If I am then why can't technology still be used in cases like the the second horrific clanger Bowden dropped yesterday where he believed there was an inside edge. The on field umpire could ask a specific question of the TV umpire - did the ball hit bat before it hit pad ? Could also be used in cases such as the Gambhir one which Rauf called correctly on this occasion but which on other occasions might be called wrongly. These are not tracking issues and in the case of the Raina one could have been cleared up by technology without controversy. Would have saved Bowden embarrassment too.
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Old 26th July 2011, 11:18   #66
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Sachin has been convinced by Hawkeye I think.
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Old 26th July 2011, 14:14   #67
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Couple of stinkers from Billy later on today. But it's worth noting that UDRS wouldn't have changed anything because England wouldn't have had any referrals left. They'd definitely have referred the early LBW shout from Broad on Gambhir which pitched marginally outside the line, so one lost. They'd then have referred the caught behind which they did refer and no evidence of the nick was forthcoming so 2 down and none left to correct Billy's stinkers.
Regardless of the specific speculations involved, you make a good point HDNB ... The assumption that the bad LBW decisions would have been reversed if the full UDRS was in place is rather hasty ... Since reviews are numbered and down to the players, it is possible for the full UDRS to be used but for none of the umpiring mistakes to be rectified at all.
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Old 26th July 2011, 18:23   #68
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I must admit I don't always read articles about the politics of cricket but am I right in thinking that India don't like the tracking element of technology and that is the reason we don't have DRS for lbw decisions ?

If I am then why can't technology still be used in cases like the the second horrific clanger Bowden dropped yesterday where he believed there was an inside edge. The on field umpire could ask a specific question of the TV umpire - did the ball hit bat before it hit pad ? Could also be used in cases such as the Gambhir one which Rauf called correctly on this occasion but which on other occasions might be called wrongly. These are not tracking issues and in the case of the Raina one could have been cleared up by technology without controversy. Would have saved Bowden embarrassment too.
Yes, you are correct.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:15   #69
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ANDY FLOWER CRITICISES "UNSATISFACTORY" LACK OF DRS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/14307241.stm

"Flower predicts the issue could cause controversy in the remaining three matches of the series ... Asked if he was worried there could be trouble ahead, he added: 'Yes, I am actually. We almost saw it happen in this Test match. ...'"

What does he mean by "trouble"? Stuart Broad getting himself fined or banned? Or a media hoo-haa with people claiming that the umpiring swung the match?

Flower implies that he thinks that when the two sides had different preferences re. DRS for this series, the ICC should have come in on the side of England and decided the issue in their favour.

He also says he thinks the umpires would prefer to use the full DRS ... But how does he know? Surely they can represent themselves on this issue.

I would have preferred it if Flower had kept his mouth shut on this matter and just got on with his job. It may seem that he is encouraging people to make a big fuss if umpiring mistakes disadvantage England.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:21   #70
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I would have preferred it if Flower had kept his mouth shut on this matter and just got on with his job. It may seem that he is encouraging people to make a big fuss if umpiring mistakes disadvantage England.
I can see your point up to about this paragraph.

It's just his opinion and I don't see why he shouldn't give it when asked. I don't see any call to arms there, just his thoughts on the system. We've heard plenty from India on what they think and you never said they should shut up and get on with it.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:23   #71
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ANDY FLOWER CRITICISES "UNSATISFACTORY" LACK OF DRS

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/14307241.stm

"Flower predicts the issue could cause controversy in the remaining three matches of the series ... Asked if he was worried there could be trouble ahead, he added: 'Yes, I am actually. We almost saw it happen in this Test match. ...'"

What does he mean by "trouble"? Stuart Broad getting himself fined or banned? Or a media hoo-haa with people claiming that the umpiring swung the match?

Flower implies that he thinks that when the two sides had different preferences re. DRS for this series, the ICC should have come in on the side of England and decided the issue in their favour.

He also says he thinks the umpires would prefer to use the full DRS ... But how does he know? Surely they can represent themselves on this issue.

I would have preferred it if Flower had kept his mouth shut on this matter and just got on with his job. It may seem that he is encouraging people to make a big fuss if umpiring mistakes disadvantage England.
nice in theory but they are not going to as employees of the ICC. They know the power of the BCCI so will an umpire take them on?
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:38   #72
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nice in theory but they are not going to as employees of the ICC. They know the power of the BCCI so will an umpire take them on?
I'm not sure this is about "the power of the BCCI". Surely it is about the principle of what to do if the two sides disagree over whether to use DRS. Perhaps there would be an internal channel whereby umpires (or their representatives) could make it known within the ICC -- if this is what they think -- that since the introduction of DRS, not using it puts intolerable pressure upon them.
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:53   #73
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I'm not sure this is about "the power of the BCCI". Surely it is about the principle of what to do if the two sides disagree over whether to use DRS. Perhaps there would be an internal channel whereby umpires (or their representatives) could make it known within the ICC -- if this is what they think -- that since the introduction of DRS, not using it puts intolerable pressure upon them.
Maybe they do say it to the ICC but will the ICC go public? this is kind of the point Flower was making
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Old 27th July 2011, 12:55   #74
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To add to that I am amazed it has not been embraced within the IPL. Think of the advertising possibilities - A proctor and gamble referral. Each referral could lead to everyone watching the big screen - ADVERT ADVERT ADVERT.
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Old 27th July 2011, 13:14   #75
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Maybe they do say it to the ICC but will the ICC go public? this is kind of the point Flower was making
Indeed, he's implying that the umpires would have registered their displeasure over not using the DRS in this series, but that the ICC wouldn't have acted on it for fear of upsetting the BCCI. But though this scenario is perhaps credible, there's nothing to suggest that Flower really knows anything about it. It might be that the umpires don't mind not using DRS, or even prefer not using it. I would imagine they have quite a spectrum of attitudes.
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Old 27th July 2011, 13:24   #76
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Indeed, he's implying that the umpires would have registered their displeasure over not using the DRS in this series, but that the ICC wouldn't have acted on it for fear of upsetting the BCCI. But though this scenario is perhaps credible, there's nothing to suggest that Flower really knows anything about it. It might be that the umpires don't mind not using DRS, or even prefer not using it. I would imagine they have quite a spectrum of attitudes.
I would imagine that most are for using it given that it is being used by TV. Which umpire would find it okay to say not out then be told 30 seconds later it was plumb and that hundreds of millions know it was wrong. Would people have remembered it was Billy who messed up both times with DRS? Maybe but maybe not. Will people remember it was him without it? Yup.

How would Bowden have felt if Raina had batted out the day and he would know that his decision cost the game?

As someone else has said why he could not check whether the batsman hit it or not is odd. But I guess it is because if he says check if he hit it I will give it out if not then the review shows it was missing then that to is a nonsense.
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Old 27th July 2011, 13:29   #77
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From an umpire's view, I imagine that DRS makes it more a matter of routine when a decision is reversed. Without it, the controversy lasts much longer, with the umpire rightly getting the blame for dreadful decisions. With it, there's really no reason to dwell on the umpire's mistake.

Of course, if a particular umpire is having a high proportion of decisions overturned, it doesn't look good, but that's really not very different from having those decisions pointed out on television and not overturned. Just less controversial.
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Old 27th July 2011, 15:13   #78
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I would imagine that most are for using it given that it is being used by TV. Which umpire would find it okay to say not out then be told 30 seconds later it was plumb and that hundreds of millions know it was wrong. Would people have remembered it was Billy who messed up both times with DRS? Maybe but maybe not. Will people remember it was him without it? Yup.

How would Bowden have felt if Raina had batted out the day and he would know that his decision cost the game?
You may be right. But in principle the situation in this series -- i.e. umpiring howlers are exposed by TV replays and gizmos, and dwelt upon by commentators -- is the same as it was before the DRS was introduced in the first place. The umpires just do their job as best they can under whatever system is in place at the time. I'm not sure that the opinion of the umpires was particularly relevant when the decision was made to introduce DRS a few years ago, so I'm also not sure that it's particularly relevant now. If Flower wanted the full DRS system in this series, it was not because of his sympathy for the poor embarrassed umpires.
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Old 28th July 2011, 21:36   #79
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Old 24th August 2011, 22:55   #80
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I was just wondering if anyone had kept any kind of tally of the number of lbw decisions that might have been overturned in this series had the DRS been in use, and which team would have benefited more.

Leaving aside the controversial (but not so in my book) decision by which Tendulkar was dismissed in his last innings, I wonder if India will be thinking of changing their attitude to the DRS in future?
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