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Old 20th April 2015, 06:52   #61
Tiscoli
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Why not just stop making irrelevant (indeed some would say, schoolboyish) comparisons and attempt all round evaluations of what players might give to England in the future? Time was when KP made a huge contribution, and along with many others, I worshipped his brilliance, but the past is the past.
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Old 20th April 2015, 10:17   #62
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Why not just stop making irrelevant (indeed some would say, schoolboyish) comparisons and attempt all round evaluations of what players might give to England in the future? Time was when KP made a huge contribution, and along with many others, I worshipped his brilliance, but the past is the past.
Yes but the future involves an Ashes series in three months.
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Old 20th April 2015, 10:38   #63
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Why not just stop making irrelevant (indeed some would say, schoolboyish) comparisons and attempt all round evaluations of what players might give to England in the future? Time was when KP made a huge contribution, and along with many others, I worshipped his brilliance, but the past is the past.
If KP was a great strike bowler I'd say bring him back. We have plenty of good batsmen and there is no place for him in the line up, unless he fancies opening.
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Old 20th April 2015, 10:45   #64
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If KP was a great strike bowler I'd say bring him back. We have plenty of good batsmen and there is no place for him in the line up, unless he fancies opening.
This is probably close to the reality of the situation. We do have good batsmen, do we have great batsmen? Do we have batsmen who can change the course of a game though? England has good cricketers, what England lacks is cricketers capable of magic, capable of something out of the ordinary, something brilliant. That's what KP gave you.

Could he still do it? Maybe, maybe not. An adventurous coach and selection committee might go for it, on the off chance that the x-factor might work in their favour. England don't do that, they play safe, they select Jonathan Trott over Adam Lyth. They keep Alastair Cook at an ODI opener ahead of giving the likes of Jason Roy, Alex Hales or James Vince a proper go.
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Old 20th April 2015, 10:54   #65
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Yes but the future involves an Ashes series in three months.
Yes indeed I did know that there is another Ashes series this summer and, purely as an aside, we - England - seem be suffering from a surfeit of Test Series, but let that be.

I was simply advocating that instead of indulging in comparisons of current one off performances, posters should take a more rounded view. Perhaps my reference to the past misled, albeit unintentionally, but there is a record which has to be considered along with other factors. My own view that publicly sacking him helped neither KP nor England cricket. Graves has I think made the situation worse by what may be seen as a pre-emptive strike. Good luck to the selectors whoever they may be!
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Old 20th April 2015, 11:03   #66
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... England has good cricketers, what England lacks is cricketers capable of magic, capable of something out of the ordinary, something brilliant. That's what KP gave you. ...
He also gave us a fractious dressing room, which many will consider not worth a punt on him ever getting back to anywhere near his best.
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Old 20th April 2015, 11:05   #67
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... Graves has I think made the situation worse by what may be seen as a pre-emptive strike. Good luck to the selectors whoever they may be!
Graves may be regretting those few ill advised words. It was entirely predictable that they would set the media on fire. On the other hand, perhaps he is happy that they have.
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Old 20th April 2015, 11:07   #68
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He also gave us a fractious dressing room
Ah yes, it was fractious when England were Test #1 and it was fractious when they were winning the T20 World Cup in the Caribbean.

Much is made of this yet rarely do you actually hear anything from within the dressing room, only from his vociferous critics.
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Old 20th April 2015, 11:12   #69
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Yes, given what we know now, there is every chance it was. Players have to be careful what they say to the media. It's strange that their employers don't always follow their lead.

In some quarters, vociferousness seems to be in favour of Pietersen. Perhaps that is because a sense of injustice, however misplaced, will always cause more noise than a sense that justice, however belatedly, has been done.
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Old 20th April 2015, 13:03   #70
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... We do have good batsmen, do we have great batsmen? Do we have batsmen who can change the course of a game though? England has good cricketers, what England lacks is cricketers capable of magic, capable of something out of the ordinary, something brilliant. That's what KP gave you. ...
Very rarely. And it's almost always irrelevant anyway. In almost all test match situations what one wants of a batsman is simply to stay in for ages and pile up the runs. The need for getting runs very quickly indeed, or with added panache (or daring, or elan, or je-ne-sais-quoi), is really quite rare -- probably rarer than the need for just staying in for ages and sod the runs (e.g. when saving a game). All things considered, I don't think the manner in which he might sometimes have scored his runs should be a point in favour of anyone when it comes to selection. Or at least, one would want plenty of massively dependable batsmen already in the team before one would prioritise manner of scoring for the remaining batsmen. Successful crease-occupation and run-accumulation is far more likely to change the course of a game than anything else a batsman is liable to do.
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Old 20th April 2015, 15:30   #71
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I gave it a go, but I couldn't come up with a single argument against that.
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Old 20th April 2015, 18:42   #72
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Old 20th April 2015, 19:20   #73
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Very rarely. And it's almost always irrelevant anyway. In almost all test match situations what one wants of a batsman is simply to stay in for ages and pile up the runs. The need for getting runs very quickly indeed, or with added panache (or daring, or elan, or je-ne-sais-quoi), is really quite rare -- probably rarer than the need for just staying in for ages and sod the runs (e.g. when saving a game). All things considered, I don't think the manner in which he might sometimes have scored his runs should be a point in favour of anyone when it comes to selection. Or at least, one would want plenty of massively dependable batsmen already in the team before one would prioritise manner of scoring for the remaining batsmen. Successful crease-occupation and run-accumulation is far more likely to change the course of a game than anything else a batsman is liable to do.
KP averaged more than almost all of his contemporaries in the England team, possibly because he has the attitude that the more shots he played the more runs he'd score, and not necessarily down to the amount of time he spent at the crease (I don't think his defensive game was his strength). I think in Test matches, a counter-attacking or all out attacking batsman is still a useful thing to have in the middle order, as in the occasions where the orthodox players have all failed, you might as well try something different to upset the bowlers' gameplan a bit. When your team is doing well, then again, having someone who can accelerate the game further to improve the chances of getting a win is very useful.
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Old 20th April 2015, 19:29   #74
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Anyway, on topic, Steven Davies is one of the unluckiest cricketers in England not to have played more internationals.
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Old 20th April 2015, 19:46   #75
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KP averaged more than almost all of his contemporaries in the England team, possibly because he has the attitude that the more shots he played the more runs he'd score, and not necessarily down to the amount of time he spent at the crease (I don't think his defensive game was his strength). I think in Test matches, a counter-attacking or all out attacking batsman is still a useful thing to have in the middle order, as in the occasions where the orthodox players have all failed, you might as well try something different to upset the bowlers' gameplan a bit. When your team is doing well, then again, having someone who can accelerate the game further to improve the chances of getting a win is very useful.
Yes we do need that in the middle order. Fingers crossed jos can fill prior's boots

Agree re Davies.
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Old 20th April 2015, 20:36   #76
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Anyway, on topic, Steven Davies is one of the unluckiest cricketers in England not to have played more internationals.


Always loved Davies. Every time I been down T'Oval he's always looked one of the classier batsmen on show. Apart from when I saw Chanders score 50 odd when he visited with Derbyshire.
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Old 20th April 2015, 21:07   #77
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KP averaged more than almost all of his contemporaries in the England team, possibly because he has the attitude that the more shots he played the more runs he'd score, and not necessarily down to the amount of time he spent at the crease (I don't think his defensive game was his strength). I think in Test matches, a counter-attacking or all out attacking batsman is still a useful thing to have in the middle order, as in the occasions where the orthodox players have all failed, you might as well try something different to upset the bowlers' gameplan a bit. When your team is doing well, then again, having someone who can accelerate the game further to improve the chances of getting a win is very useful.
I thought KP had a pretty good defensive technique and good eyes so lots of time. In a way the fact that he had such a good record yet often got himself out is testament to his defensive skills. In any case you're right about wanting something more positive in the middle order, and I think we've got that at the moment with the all-rounders from no. 6 downwards. I also think Root is probably developing it.
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Old 20th April 2015, 21:45   #78
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I thought KP had a pretty good defensive technique and good eyes so lots of time. In a way the fact that he had such a good record yet often got himself out is testament to his defensive skills. In any case you're right about wanting something more positive in the middle order, and I think we've got that at the moment with the all-rounders from no. 6 downwards. I also think Root is probably developing it.
He obviously worked very hard to develop his defence. A lot of it is down to mentality as well, and whether as a coach you try to encourage attacking players to play that way, or ask them to tone it down because it's a crime to get yourself out in Test cricket. I think that was a major factor in the difference in relationship he had with Fletcher and Flower. I don't know what the stats are, but I bet he averaged 10 more playing for the former than the latter. Admittedly there are other factors involved, but it seemed to me that KP's strike rate was much lower as his career went on as well.
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Old 21st April 2015, 11:46   #79
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Vince golden duck. Glad I made him fantasy captain
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Old 21st April 2015, 12:10   #80
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Vince golden duck. Glad I made him fantasy captain
I thought Vince would open for England in the ODIs against NZ but he's struggling at the minute. Maybe he just needs a bit of time to get used to Div One bowling.
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