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Old 10th November 2015, 15:05   #41
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...The idea that prior was not a vastly superior keeper is frankly laughable.
As laughable as the idea that you may be objective about something?
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Old 10th November 2015, 15:15   #42
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It's probably nothing to do with reading him. If one has limited cricket knowledge one may not know this, but a bowler will usually let his keeper know when he is going to try a variation.
I find it strange that his team mate wouldn't let him know. Also would expect that after keeping to him for years he'd be able to read him. Several Pakistan batsmen who had just come across him seemed to do OK.

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As laughable as the idea that you may be objective about something?
Bizarre, given who posted it.
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Old 10th November 2015, 15:27   #43
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As laughable as the idea that you may be objective about something?
When prior came in I as still a cheerleader for Chris read so that should probably be considered as relevant. I WAS anti prior as he WAS rubbish. He improved and I changed my view.
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Old 10th November 2015, 15:34   #44
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Prior was excellent and then got rubbish.

Four of his last five test series he averaged in the teens and he was clearly hampered by injury in the end. He was an outstanding player for England prior (pun not intended) to that. Better batting average than Stewart and I'd say a better keeper as well.
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Old 10th November 2015, 15:45   #45
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It's probably nothing to do with reading him. If one has limited cricket knowledge one may not know this, but a bowler will usually let his keeper know when he is going to try a variation. The claim above that a keeper will just try to read him and not use the advantage of knowing a bowler's intention is, frankly, nonsense. It would also lead to a few mistakes, especially over so many years, and suggests a career playing in a team of not very serious players.
Lol, amusing.

Maybe you've kept wicket before to a serious standard. I doubt it but you never know. I had many a spinner including our most recent leggie bowl trick deliveries. Never had a problem picking them because, like most good batsman, you watch the hand & the action & look for variations.

The pull of the shirt or a rub of the hair hardly ever happened as it wasn't needed.

Hey, maybe I was really good at reading it. I dunno.

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An intended leg spin delivery behaving like a googly often happens.
Can you quantify 'often'?
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Old 10th November 2015, 15:58   #46
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Thinking more about this the only bowler on my side I couldn't read was an offie who could bowl the flick finger straightener/away seamer out of the natural offie action.

Most recently made mildly famous by ex-Warks' Alex Loudon.

Didn't have a clue when that was coming down but it's far easier to react to an offie that straightens to right handers anyway as you tend naturally not to 'keep for the turn'.
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Old 10th November 2015, 16:19   #47
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Regarding Rashid, he has a very pronounced leg break action so I'd imagine there would be a vast or very noticeable difference when bowling a variation.

When first facing a leggie you should be looking at the action & taking as many mental notes as possible. That's basic practice imo & something I coached in to as many youth players as possible, particularly keepers.
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Old 10th November 2015, 17:04   #48
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YAMS - there's no point keeping on digging a hole. Just accept that D/L has a vastly superior knowledge of cricket to anyone who has ever walked the planet.
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Old 10th November 2015, 17:09   #49
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I find it strange that his team mate wouldn't let him know. Also would expect that after keeping to him for years he'd be able to read him. Several Pakistan batsmen who had just come across him seemed to do OK.
I suppose there is an outside chance you are being deliberately obtuse but if not, as said before, there is the possibility the delivery was intended to be a leg-spinner, in which case why would Rashid let him know?
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Old 10th November 2015, 17:13   #50
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...Can you quantify 'often'?
In this case, no.

I suppose it would be fairly subjective and depend upon how much cricket one has seen on a roughed up pitch.
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Old 10th November 2015, 17:17   #51
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Regarding Rashid, he has a very pronounced leg break action so I'd imagine there would be a vast or very noticeable difference when bowling a variation.

When first facing a leggie you should be looking at the action & taking as many mental notes as possible. That's basic practice imo & something I coached in to as many youth players as possible, particularly keepers.
It makes the job a lot easier though if the bowler uses some sort of signal. Surprised it never happened with you in a long keeping career. I never played in a team with a decent spinner when it wasn't used to indicate a variation on its way.
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Old 10th November 2015, 17:46   #52
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It makes the job a lot easier though if the bowler uses some sort of signal. Surprised it never happened with you in a long keeping career. I never played in a team with a decent spinner when it wasn't used to indicate a variation on its way.
I was playing a decent leggie once and did not pick Googly. I did notice he did a funny step walking back to his mark before he bowled then the next over he did the same step. Googly did not fool me again.

When mushy got to Sussex he asked was keeper and went and bowled to him until he could pick the Googly. Prior said that once he had it he had it. The idea that after playing together for several years that bairstow should not always pick Rashid is mindblowing. My guess is that he lost concentration.
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:38   #53
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YAMS - there's no point keeping on digging a hole. Just accept that D/L has a vastly superior knowledge of cricket to anyone who has ever walked the planet.
This topic is close to my heart & one I'm confident I'm pretty qualified on. Normally I wouldn't bother getting involved.

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It makes the job a lot easier though if the bowler uses some sort of signal. Surprised it never happened with you in a long keeping career. I never played in a team with a decent spinner when it wasn't used to indicate a variation on its way.
I imagine if you jump from team to team & see new players all the time there is some merit in a signal. If I was ever keeping to a new bowler I would make a point of watching them in the nets or even having a chat before the first game to get a general idea.

It was a rare occurrence though as I only played for two clubs & was taught from an early age when keeping & subsequently batting to always watch the bowlers hand/wrist position & motion on release.

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My guess is that he lost concentration.
This is definitely a more realistic conclusion imo.
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:51   #54
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It's (probably accidentally) an interesting question: how often might a leg break not do what's expected? Quite often the leggie doesn't turn, even on a turning deck, as it won't always grip, even with the same action but I don't think I've even spotted one turn like a googly. It would require it not just to hit a big enough divot to go the other way if it had been a straight on delivery like a top spinner but a big enough one to negate the normal turn imparted and additionally send it the other way. Don't think it would happen anything like as often as once a test match.
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Old 10th November 2015, 18:55   #55
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It's (probably accidentally) an interesting question: how often might a leg break not do what's expected? Quite often the leggie doesn't turn, even on a turning deck, as it won't always grip, even with the same action but I don't think I've even spotted one turn like a googly. It would require it not just to hit a big enough divot to go the other way if it had been a straight on delivery like a top spinner but a big enough one to negate the normal turn imparted and additionally send it the other way. Don't think it would happen anything like as often as once a test match.
Surely it would have been commented upon at the time, as a replay would make it obvious that he was bowling a leg break or a googly and the commentators are generally pretty good at pointing it out. Most likely is that Bairstow didn't read it or just didn't get a glove on it because he's not much of a keeper.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:02   #56
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It's (probably accidentally) an interesting question: how often might a leg break not do what's expected? Quite often the leggie doesn't turn, even on a turning deck, as it won't always grip, even with the same action but I don't think I've even spotted one turn like a googly. It would require it not just to hit a big enough divot to go the other way if it had been a straight on delivery like a top spinner but a big enough one to negate the normal turn imparted and additionally send it the other way. Don't think it would happen anything like as often as once a test match.
Offie's at a good level are almost always 'over spinners' rather than 'off spinners'. To them bounce is more of a weapon than turn although on turning tracks the two go hand in hand. 90% of Swann's deliveries were over spinners.

Leggie's are a different breed & unpredictable day by day to an extent. For a leggie to turn in to a googly though it implies the pitch interfered. I'd agree that you get more consistent turn from a finger spinner than a wrist spinner.

We had one chap who could bowl the lot..... Legs, googlies, sliders, top spinners & a stupidly fast gripper that popped up.... Couldn't pitch them in the same place twice mind you.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:08   #57
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It's (probably accidentally) an interesting question: how often might a leg break not do what's expected? Quite often the leggie doesn't turn, even on a turning deck, as it won't always grip, even with the same action but I don't think I've even spotted one turn like a googly. It would require it not just to hit a big enough divot to go the other way if it had been a straight on delivery like a top spinner but a big enough one to negate the normal turn imparted and additionally send it the other way. Don't think it would happen anything like as often as once a test match.
A player used to watching Rashid a lot might be under the impression that leg spinners can occasionally turn the other way for two reasons. 1) he bowls quite a few googlies 2) he scrambles the seam quite a bit, so there are probably more of his balls that go straight on than a leggie with better seam position.
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Old 10th November 2015, 19:43   #58
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A player used to watching Rashid a lot might be under the impression that leg spinners can occasionally turn the other way for two reasons. 1) he bowls quite a few googlies 2) he scrambles the seam quite a bit, so there are probably more of his balls that go straight on than a leggie with better seam position.
Many Asian spinners, particularly Pakistani ones, scramble the seam so it can possibly confuse batsmen as to which way the ball is turning, if they (the batsmen) are watching the ball from the hand. However I suspect that you are merely pointing out that Rashid not being as consistent as others simply doesn't release the ball in a manner that will allow the ball to project in a manner according to his intention as regularly as he would like.
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Old 11th November 2015, 10:29   #59
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I have to smile when people seem to think one delivery can confirm them in their opinions of a player.

As far as the bowler signalling to the keeper goes, it seems that most teams would seek to exploit every advantage they have over the batsman, including that of the bowler and keeper being in the same team.

I have to smile too at the impression that some seem never to have considered the possibility of it happening.

It is usually the ball pitching in a roughed up part of the wicket that makes the ball misbehave. In a test match, of course, where the wicket is subject to much wear and tear, it can happen quite often.
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Old 11th November 2015, 10:39   #60
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I'm liking the way this spat has diverted attention away from the second named person in the thread title. One can only pray that the selectors are similarly distracted.
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