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Old 12th November 2015, 10:50   #141
oldandfat
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A pretty dreadful batting side there, I'd only take Vince out of that mob. As for the bowling I think that would struggle quite dreadfully after the first few overs with the new ball.
And the difference with the present mob? We still struggle to take wickets after the new ball.
I just knocked it off to illustrate a point.
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Old 12th November 2015, 10:51   #142
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No, you still have two batsmen eleven fielders of which one will be bowling and one keeping wicket etc etc. The basics of the game are the same and the best players thrive in all formats.

They're so different that Steve Smith plays all three happily and pretty well. Shall I list the rest? Joe Root, Hashim Amla, Kumar Sangakkara ........ sorry, I'm bored.

You have a core group who are capable of playing all three and then you use others as and when you see fit depending on the workloads. It's not rocket science but to claim that the three games are so different is ridiculous and proven to be rubbish by all the other nations who have top players succeeding in all three.
Cook is England's best test batsman but would we have him near the one day or imagine the t20?

Others such as Strauss, Vaughan, bell, trott etc were never cut out for t20.

You lost other countries but what about finch? Bevan? Brad Hogg? Etc.

If they are not different games then why are Yorkshire head and shoulders above the rest at county champ but have always been terrible at t20?

Teams who have done well over the years in one day and t20 cricket - Gloucester, leics, Kent etc. all crap at 4 day.

Yes some players can play all formats but the games are different. Yes you have the same number of players but you can win an ODI or t20 match without taking a wicket or very few. First class crickets bowlers HAVE to take wickets. My view is that you have different setups and if some players play both formats then great but many won't.

I am off to look up the test career of Nathan braken who opened the bowling in Australia's demolition of the 07 World Cup.
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Old 12th November 2015, 10:54   #143
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I'd be in favour of having two (three?) different teams on the basis that the limited overs stuff exists only to make money. The fans have always turned up for these games and/or switched on their tellies, regardless of how poor the England ODI side or selections have been, so why not put out a different group of blokes and save the energies of those who play Test cricket?
Hard to disagree.
Although I would argue that T20 should not be an international game.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:00   #144
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And the difference with the present mob? We still struggle to take wickets after the new ball.
I just knocked it off to illustrate a point.
The current batting side has some as yet untapped potential, particularly thinking of Roy, Buttler (up to a point) and even Ali. The turnover of players post the world cup was always likely to throw up a few backward steps with newer players being introduced. That the likes of Root failed and Hales has not progressed made the early meltdown even worse yesterday.

It is true that the bowling selection was far from briliiant but it should be put in mind that Wood, Stokes and Finn are injured so it is a fair way from what might be a first line XI that would potentially have far more wicket taking power.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:06   #145
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Yes some players can play all formats but the games are different. Yes you have the same number of players but you can win an ODI or t20 match without taking a wicket or very few. First class crickets bowlers HAVE to take wickets. My view is that you have different setups and if some players play both formats then great but many won't.
Your last sentence there is the one I'd agree with the most and the best nations will have a larger core than the others.

Why do some succeed over others? Prioritisation. Yorkshire don't prioritise the shorter forms, look at some of the sides they've put out in 20 and 50 overs matches recently? Their best two bowlers in the Championship are Sidebottom and Brooks, neither play much in the shorter forms - Sid to keep him going for longer and Brooksey Ferret because he's easy to line up in the shorter forms.

Glos, Leics, Kent all decided that to succeed in 20 or 50 overs competitions was more within their reach than the County Championship. Hard to disagree.

Cook isn't England's best batsman though, he's limited which is why he's so good in Tests, because he understands those limits and plays well within them. In terms of being a rounded batsman, Joe Root is streets ahead.

The best players from all around the word have been successful at whatever format of the game they choose to play. Ponting and Hayden crossed the divides easily as did McGrath and Warne. Look at Kallis and Pollock too.

The games have different mentalities and the best players respond to the different challenges, they can adapt.

I don't get your point about Nathan Bracken, there will always be room for specialists, just not an entire team of them.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:29   #146
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I mentioned the 2007 World Cup so consider the Aussie side.

Gilly opened when batted 7 in tests.

Only McGrath of the bowlers had any sort of test career as a bowler. The others were all rounders or were limited over specialists. Hogg, tait and bracken.

I have not looked at other world cups. I wonder if similar story.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:37   #147
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You make a good point but I'd still suggest that the core responsible for the success was Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting and McGrath. Michael Clarke had a decent Test career too as did Mike Hussey.

The 2015 vintage saw Test players such as Warner, Clarke, Smith, Watson, Johnson, Haddin and the emerging Starc and Hazelwood involved. Not too far from their current Test side which beats all-comers in the same stadia as the World Cup was played.

Were either winning side to be shorn of the Test players the destination of the trophy would no doubt have been different.

I understand those who put Tests ahead of everything else saying that they want to see the Test XI as separate, I don't agree with it though.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:41   #148
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Glos, Leics, Kent all decided that to succeed in 20 or 50 overs competitions was more within their reach than the County Championship. Hard to disagree.
Impossible to disagree, given that those teams had no opportunity to challenge for the Championship last year.

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Cook isn't England's best batsman though, he's limited which is why he's so good in Tests, because he understands those limits and plays well within them. In terms of being a rounded batsman, Joe Root is streets ahead.
I'd say he's potentially the finest home grown English batsman for half a century. He's also had indications of a back problem, rather worrying in one so young. Root is clearly earmarked to form the core of England's Test batting over the next decade and also be a lead contender for the captaincy. I do fear that the additional workload of a couple of hundred ODIs, with all the frenetic outfielding required, might jeopardise this plan.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:42   #149
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You make a good point but I'd still suggest that the core responsible for the success was Gilchrist, Hayden, Ponting and McGrath. Michael Clarke had a decent Test career too as did Mike Hussey.

The 2015 vintage saw Test players such as Warner, Clarke, Smith, Watson, Johnson, Haddin and the emerging Starc and Hazelwood involved. Not too far from their current Test side which beats all-comers in the same stadia as the World Cup was played.

Were either winning side to be shorn of the Test players the destination of the trophy would no doubt have been different.

I understand those who put Tests ahead of everything else saying that they want to see the Test XI as separate, I don't agree with it though.
Although finch, maxwell and Faulkner were crucial.

I am convinced that our problem is that we are just not very good
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:51   #150
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Interested to read the posts being critical of Hales for the Rashid long hop that got hit very hard over and wide of his position and that in some way Rashid may have been upset that he didn't get an lbw when the ball hit the bat first. Difficult to see how he did anything much other than get smashed all over the place for bowling pies (and get out playing a soft shot). There were a very few good balls in there but far outweighed by all the long hops. Sadly it was the same in the tests too.
Whatever the quality of the delivery, Hales misjudged the opportunity. Also, "Hotspot", had it been available would probably have shown that the ball hit the pad a split second before the bat.

Rashid did bowl too many bad balls but a wicket at those times may have made a difference. By contrast, Ali never threatened and the wicket he took was the fortunate result of a very poor shot.

When the opposition are chasing a small total, bowling "darts" for a low economy rate will usually only delay defeat.
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Old 12th November 2015, 11:54   #151
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England will give the players until the end of the SA series whether they are good or bad and after that make some decisions.

I think the squad now in the UAE is perfect for the 20/20 game but preferred the Cook 36.40, Strauss 36.63, Trott 51.25 top order type of players who build a foundation and get 100 from the last 10 overs.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:01   #152
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Whatever the quality of the delivery, Hales misjudged the opportunity. Also, "Hotspot", had it been available would probably have shown that the ball hit the pad a split second before the bat.

Rashid did bowl too many bad balls but a wicket at those times may have made a difference. By contrast, Ali never threatened and the wicket he took was the fortunate result of a very poor shot.

When the opposition are chasing a small total, bowling "darts" for a low economy rate will usually only delay defeat.
This special pleading is excellent. How many matches have Rashid and moeen now played together? 12 or 13? I would guess Rashid has had better figures twice. Maybe the saying "it is better to be lucky than good" was coined for this pair.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:13   #153
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England will give the players until the end of the SA series whether they are good or bad and after that make some decisions.

I think the squad now in the UAE is perfect for the 20/20 game but preferred the Cook 36.40, Strauss 36.63, Trott 51.25 top order type of players who build a foundation and get 100 from the last 10 overs.
Except we'd make a complete cock up of the last 10 overs and get bowled out for 40. Arguably we have those players in Root and Taylor anyway who will average a lot, in Root's case whilst retaining a high strike rate. I think we have to hold our nerve with these players and this approach, though Hales can be easily replaced by moving Ali back up to open. I'm not sure what Woakes is doing in an England shirt. Other than that, there are some very interesting cricketers that need to be stuck with. Yes, we will lose lots of games, but in the greater scheme of things does it really matter if we get beaten by Pakistan in the UAE?
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:26   #154
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Funny how many people criticise the bowlers even though the batsmen left them with an impossible job. You don't win many ODI's with a score of 216.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:29   #155
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This special pleading is excellent. How many matches have Rashid and moeen now played together? 12 or 13? I would guess Rashid has had better figures twice. Maybe the saying "it is better to be lucky than good" was coined for this pair.
Not like you to take account of figures to the exclusion of all else.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:34   #156
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Funny how many people criticise the bowlers even though the batsmen left them with an impossible job. You don't win many ODI's with a score of 216.
Exactly.

For a start, the team chasing a low total can approach their innings with greatly increased confidence. As long as they are professional enough not to let that become over confidence, it gives them a tremendous advantage.

That's what our batsmen did - handed Pakistan a tremendous advantage, another aspect of which is they didn't have to bat very long to an attacking field. It's strange that so often when the batsmen fail, the bowlers get most of the stick.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:36   #157
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Not like you to take account of figures to the exclusion of all else.
Haha. I love this response.
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Old 12th November 2015, 12:58   #158
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Except we'd make a complete cock up of the last 10 overs and get bowled out for 40. Arguably we have those players in Root and Taylor anyway who will average a lot, in Root's case whilst retaining a high strike rate. I think we have to hold our nerve with these players and this approach, though Hales can be easily replaced by moving Ali back up to open. I'm not sure what Woakes is doing in an England shirt. Other than that, there are some very interesting cricketers that need to be stuck with. Yes, we will lose lots of games, but in the greater scheme of things does it really matter if we get beaten by Pakistan in the UAE?
That's the thing. There is nothing wrong with having a period of building so long as you have the capacity to accelerate, something which all 3 of those players really didn't have in their locker.
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Old 12th November 2015, 13:28   #159
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The current batting side has some as yet untapped potential, particularly thinking of Roy, Buttler (up to a point) and even Ali. The turnover of players post the world cup was always likely to throw up a few backward steps with newer players being introduced. That the likes of Root failed and Hales has not progressed made the early meltdown even worse yesterday.

It is true that the bowling selection was far from briliiant but it should be put in mind that Wood, Stokes and Finn are injured so it is a fair way from what might be a first line XI that would potentially have far more wicket taking power.
Wood?
7 ODIs 5 wickets 68.80 econ 5.83 s/r 70.8
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Old 12th November 2015, 13:38   #160
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Wood?
7 ODIs 5 wickets 68.80 econ 5.83 s/r 70.8
I really don't understand why you are making such a fuss on data concerning a limited number of games. He's a younger bowler who will be allowed some time to make his way. He's quick and hustles batsmen. He won't play every game by any means but I'd rather stick with someone with potential than some of the dobbers mentioned earlier on who will be utter cannon fodder away from the greener pitches.
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