Cricket 24/7  

Welcome to the Cricket 24/7.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. There are also more forums available to members, such as the Lounge - where members chat about just about anything under the sun except cricket!

Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.


Go Back   Cricket 24/7 > Cricket Discussion Forums > England
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar Casino Articles Terms of Use Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14th November 2015, 11:48   #1
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,555
England's ongoing transition

After the 5th test versus India in August 2014 there was a bit of optimism in some quarters about the shape of the England team going forward but let us look at the composition of that team compared to the one that will possibly/likely take the field on Boxing day against South Africa as in between that time 16 months and 13 test matches have taken place


;-

5th test v India 2014

Cook*
Robson
Ballance
Bell
Root
Ali
Buttler+
Woakes
Jordan
Broad
Anderson

the likely line up against South Africa at Durban

Cook*
Hales?
Bell?
Root
Taylor?
Stokes
Bairstow+
Ali?
Wood/Finn
Broad
Anderson

There was much talk about building roots and putting faith in the new generation of players but have a look at the Oval test. 5 of those players are now no longer in the test side and some have slim/no chance of a recall to test colours. There is 1 opener slot up for grabs and at least 2 middle order batting slots that you could call into question. Since that victory against a weak touring side England's playing record is W5 D2 L6, as I'm sure the likes of Jock McT has pointed out.

The batting order remains a point of concern although England's seam bowling stocks look a bit better with a welcome return to some sort of form by Finn and the introduction of Wood. So where does England go from here in terms of personnel? Who are they going to identify and back. They've taken a punto on a succession of openers many of whom have been woefully deficient and I take the point that Joe Root could be moved back up there. However I prefer the idea that he could move up to 3 and perhaps move Mr Binary back down to 5 (where he has been successful) with Taylor coming in at 4. Root is England's best and classiest player and perhaps needs that responsibility. I would also think that there could be a place for Ali at 7 ahead of Bairstow but this is where you could argue that England would be better off picking an accomplished gloveman rather than a batsman who wears the gloves (*stands back having lit the fuse*!).

Anyway over to you and what do you think should happen to see England progress?
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More

Last edited by Chin Music : 6th December 2015 at 13:14. Reason: To correct England's win/loss record in 2015
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2015, 12:59   #2
1000yardstare
Posting Goddess
 
1000yardstare's Avatar
JA 764 Wagner 118 TCurran 5 SCurran 0 Cummins 85
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 19,902
The seam bowling - seeing Woakes ahead of Plunkett and Jordan in ODIs makes me think this is the order plus Stokes.

Anderson
Broad
Finn
Wood
Woakes
Plunkett
Jordan
Footitt

So if they take 6 bowlers Plunkett just makes it. A stable of 8 fast bowlers is needed for injuries and form. Wood may have an operation on his ankle and if so maybe they would take Footitt as the 6th bowler.

Stokes is likely to have recovered from his collar bone injury - possibility of
not being ready for 1st Test then Woakes at 6.
1000yardstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2015, 13:21   #3
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,053
I'm not saying our seam bowling reserves are particularly great but they could be worse. Certainly plenty of depth currently. Would be nice to see that replicated elsewhere in the side.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2015, 13:22   #4
cabinboy
Posting God
 
cabinboy's Avatar
Do Gooder
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
Don't see what the problem is.

Cook is a fantastic captain who has only just lost his first test in series in 18 months and can't stop scoring runs.

Bell is so good he is beyond statistical analysis and we need his experience in South Africa.

In a player like Moeen we have match winning contributions with bat and ball.

Anderson is great, well he is.

The strength of England though is clearly all those Yorkshire players who are either great (Root) or continually unfortunate (the rest). However imagine how much better we'd be if Bresnan replaced Broad?

The only problem player is Ben Stokes. Yes he makes match winning contributions and could attract bums on seats but doesn't have the right attitude and I think KP said something nice about him.
Did somebody say KP, I like the cut of his jib.
cabinboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 08:05   #5
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
I'm not saying our seam bowling reserves are particularly great but they could be worse. Certainly plenty of depth currently. Would be nice to see that replicated elsewhere in the side.
The seam bowling depth is the one thing that gives England hope certainly in conditions that moderately favour it.

The batting in South Africa on decks that you would expect to have a bit of pace and bounce, certainly at Joburg and Centurion, I don't fancy several of the middle order players at all.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 09:32   #6
Fatslogger
Self Confessed Mentalist
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hitchin
Team(s): England and Liverpool
Age: 41
Posts: 43,124
I agree about the batting although I rate some of them better on seamers than turners. Course it's likely we'll end up with Taylor and Ballance doing badly in SA, when both suited to UAE and one test between them there.
__________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes - Wilde
Fatslogger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 10:39   #7
D/L
World Class
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Leeds
Team(s): Yorkshire CCC & England, Wakefield Trinity RLFC, Leeds Carnegie RUFC
Posts: 6,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
...The strength of England though is clearly all those Yorkshire players who are either great (Root) or continually unfortunate (the rest). However imagine how much better we'd be if Bresnan replaced Broad?...
To quote somebody or other, "there is many a true word spoken in jest".
D/L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 11:16   #8
sharky
Posting God
 
sharky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Sussex
Team(s): Sussex, England
Posts: 10,039
I don't remember there being much optimism after we beat India, in fact I felt that summer was the most embarrassing collective performance since the turn of the century. It's understandable that some players have gone, and also that young players have had to go back to county cricket to work on things. I'd make a clean break from Bell and get Taylor at 3 and Ballance at 5 for the long term. Yes it will be a tough examination in SA but they will get more out of a failure there than Bell, and of course there is the chance they play well. I'd also like to see how Ansari responds to Test cricket.
__________________
She was like a candle in the wind...Unreliable
sharky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 11:47   #9
YAMS
Banned
 
YAMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali TT View Post
The strength of England though is clearly all those Yorkshire players who are either great (Root) or continually unfortunate (the rest). However imagine how much better we'd be if Bresnan replaced Broad?
Someone is on top form, very good.
__________________
Available via PM.
YAMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 13:12   #10
Rey
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Castleford
Team(s): Yorkshire
Posts: 14,306
It would be nice for a new thread not to immediately devolve into the point scoring seen everywhere else on the board.
__________________
"He has sat on the fence so long that the iron has entered his soul."
Rey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 13:33   #11
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,053
True, sorry, deleted my post.

Back to the side, what about the batting? Plenty of apparently talented younger players in the side but few have yet justified their place.

Buttler has been a huge disappointment, while Bairstow is yet to have a break through, Taylor and Ballance don't inspire confidence while Stokes and Ali will always be hit and miss. We aren't lacking options in the middle of the order but need one or two to step up a gear.
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 14:16   #12
James Zebrorter
The True Hero of Essex
 
James Zebrorter's Avatar
In a time of need. A new spearhead will arrive
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Glasgow
Team(s): AFC Hornchurch, Essex, England
Age: 33
Posts: 18,123
As long as Ali is our spinner I think he'll struggle to cement a proper batting place so you can't really count him as a proper middle order batsman.

I think we've now identified the next group for the next couple of years or so. We need to stick with them until some of the others start to develop. I'm not totally up with other counties prospects but I could see England recognition for Nick Browne and Dan Lawrence.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
I'm fully aware of his thinking, which merely underlines the point that he's an idiot.
James Zebrorter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 14:33   #13
Sir Virgs and Zamora
Posting God
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 18,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Fried McZebra View Post
As long as Ali is our spinner I think he'll struggle to cement a proper batting place so you can't really count him as a proper middle order batsman.

I think we've now identified the next group for the next couple of years or so. We need to stick with them until some of the others start to develop. I'm not totally up with other counties prospects but I could see England recognition for Nick Browne and Dan Lawrence.
Tom Abell will be the opener. Mark my words. Tres does not talk up many players but young Tom he can't say enough about. He knows what he is talking about given they have batted together loads. He remains as opener when Rogers joins.
Sir Virgs and Zamora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 15:52   #14
Chin Music
Administrator
 
Chin Music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: la sala de opinion equivocada
Team(s): ****
Posts: 23,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharky View Post
I don't remember there being much optimism after we beat India, in fact I felt that summer was the most embarrassing collective performance since the turn of the century. It's understandable that some players have gone, and also that young players have had to go back to county cricket to work on things. I'd make a clean break from Bell and get Taylor at 3 and Ballance at 5 for the long term. Yes it will be a tough examination in SA but they will get more out of a failure there than Bell, and of course there is the chance they play well. I'd also like to see how Ansari responds to Test cricket.
There were one or two favourble comments on this board at the time, but like you I felt a little cold and I was at the Oval to see a highly disinterested Indian side fold feebly without England having to show that much at all to beat them as they did. I also remembered that earlier this year certain journalists were bigging up England based on the 3 India wins and the subsequent results v West Indies and New Zealand. That overlooked that neither of the latter two series were won and that if they counted England results from the 3rd India test they could have pointed out P8 W5 D1 L2 in England's favour regardless of the circumstances surrounding much of that, i.e. a spineless tourist and a disappointing result against a mediocre Windies side.

In light of that I thought about the results of this year and the change in personnel that have happened in that time. It makes me believe that the management haven't really identified that carefully the personnel on the batting front. It wasn't difficult to highlight concerns with the England batting order going into the Pakistan series and if anything the weaknesses are possibly a little more entrenched with the sharp decline of Bell and the non-progression of Bairstow (as a batsman), Stokes (as a batsman) and the regression of Ali as a bowler. I will hold judgement on Ali the batsman as like many others I just feel he was hung out to dry by going to opener.

As I said above the pace bowling options look rosier than they a while ago but this has to be counter-balanced by the lack of real progression of the batting as a unit. The batting will be utterly (over)reliant on Cook and Root and in South Africa that will involve them coming up against a good quality pace attack on decks that are likely to favour their bowling.
__________________
Quote:
"One of the greatest problems of our time is that many are schooled but few are educated" - Thomas More
Chin Music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 15:55   #15
YAMS
Banned
 
YAMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rey View Post
It would be nice for a new thread not to immediately devolve into the point scoring seen everywhere else on the board.
Ever wonder why this happens?
__________________
Available via PM.
YAMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 17:18   #16
Rey
Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Castleford
Team(s): Yorkshire
Posts: 14,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by YAMS View Post
Ever wonder why this happens?
A few people really enjoying poking each other would be the main reason. I thought we could have at least one thread where it didn't take over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Fried McZebra View Post
As long as Ali is our spinner I think he'll struggle to cement a proper batting place so you can't really count him as a proper middle order batsman.

I think we've now identified the next group for the next couple of years or so. We need to stick with them until some of the others start to develop. I'm not totally up with other counties prospects but I could see England recognition for Nick Browne and Dan Lawrence.
I don't necessarily disagree with this, but as Chin points out in his opening post, this hasn't been happening. The likes of Robson, Lyth and Ballance have had some success, but then had a bad series and got dropped. The question is whether they should have been given longer to try and overcome their problems in the Test arena, or whether England should keep cycling through them until an established player is unearthed.
__________________
"He has sat on the fence so long that the iron has entered his soul."
Rey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 17:18   #17
1000yardstare
Posting Goddess
 
1000yardstare's Avatar
JA 764 Wagner 118 TCurran 5 SCurran 0 Cummins 85
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: London
Posts: 19,902
[quote=Chin Music;693256]There were one or two favourble comments on this board at the time, but like you I felt a little cold and I was at the Oval to see a highly disinterested Indian side fold feebly without England having to show that much at all to beat them as they did. I also remembered that earlier this year certain journalists were bigging up England based on the 3 India wins and the subsequent results v West Indies and New Zealand. That overlooked that neither of the latter two series were won and that if they counted England results from the 3rd India test they could have pointed out P8 W5 D1 L2 in England's favour regardless of the circumstances surrounding much of that, i.e. a spineless tourist and a disappointing result against a mediocre Windies side.

In light of that I thought about the results of this year and the change in personnel that have happened in that time. It makes me believe that the management haven't really identified that carefully the personnel on the batting front. It wasn't difficult to highlight concerns with the England batting order going into the Pakistan series and if anything the weaknesses are possibly a little more entrenched with the sharp decline of Bell and the non-progression of Bairstow (as a batsman), Stokes (as a batsman) and the regression of Ali as a bowler. I will hold judgement on Ali the batsman as like many others I just feel he was hung out to dry by going to opener.

As I said above the pace bowling options look rosier than they a while ago but this has to be counter-balanced by the lack of real progression of the batting as a unit. The batting will be utterly (over)reliant on Cook and Root and in South Africa that will involve them coming up against a good quality pace attack on decks that are likely to favour their bowling.[/QUOTE

1 Cook
2
3
4 Root
5 Taylor
6 Stokes
7
8 Ali

I feel confident with those 5 and the bowling.
1000yardstare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 17:47   #18
Ali TT
Posting God
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Fried McZebra View Post
As long as Ali is our spinner I think he'll struggle to cement a proper batting place so you can't really count him as a proper middle order batsman.

I think we've now identified the next group for the next couple of years or so. We need to stick with them until some of the others start to develop. I'm not totally up with other counties prospects but I could see England recognition for Nick Browne and Dan Lawrence.
He's gone from being an all rounder last year, to a bowler whose batting was better than his bowling this summer, gone to the next batsman sacrifced on the altar of being our next opener. Hard to judge what he really is going forward now. Perhaps he should be considered for the middle order again.

Cook
TBD
Taylor/Ballance
Root
Bairstow+
Ali
Stokes
The rest

I'd rather both of Taylor and Ballance and only one of Stokes or Ali though
__________________
WARNING
Reading the above post may cause bouts of nausea.
Ali TT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 17:50   #19
cabinboy
Posting God
 
cabinboy's Avatar
Do Gooder
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,965
In all seriousness. Morgan could do a job. He's currently playing, is in good form and would add another level of leadership to a team lacking in leaders. We are seriously lacking in senior players, especially with Bell looking in terminal decline. Given the lack of confidence amongst all the other batsmen, apart from Cook, Root and Taylor, I'd get him in.
cabinboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2015, 18:12   #20
James Zebrorter
The True Hero of Essex
 
James Zebrorter's Avatar
In a time of need. A new spearhead will arrive
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Glasgow
Team(s): AFC Hornchurch, Essex, England
Age: 33
Posts: 18,123
Morgan could do a job and does as ODI batsman and captain. I'd be very loathe to throw him in again and he is behind Ballance, Taylor, Bell and KP for me. And I wouldn't pick KP.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by High Druid Nathan Barley View Post
I'm fully aware of his thinking, which merely underlines the point that he's an idiot.
James Zebrorter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 15:33.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Cricket247.org