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Old 16th November 2015, 10:56   #41
Notts Exile
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Worse players are getting picked ahead of Morgan. It looks very likely that Hales is going to open against SA, when we all know he's not up to scratch.
LOL.

How can you know that Hales isn't up to scratch? And still say that Morgan should come back, who has already been proven to fall short. Bizarre.
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Old 16th November 2015, 10:59   #42
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Because Morgan is an outsider from the comfortable failing England clique that cabinboy believes still exists. Like KP.
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Old 16th November 2015, 11:08   #43
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Cook
Hales
Taylor
Root
Balance
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali

I am not so down on Hales as others. His technique appears (to my limited judgement) to be fairly sound, IMO it will be mainly down to shot selection. His success in limited overs/T20 cricket has mainly been when he plays with a partner (Lumb/Roy) who goes for it from first ball allowing him to play himself in. When he first appeared in FC I seem to remember he was considered something of a blocker lacking shots?
I would like to see Root step up to No.3 - but why mess with your best player to cover others weaknesses. So IMO it is either Taylor or recall Lyth and bat Hales at three - which I quite like the idea of.
Balance bats at No.5 (ish - please don't use facts to ruin my argument) in CC so give him a go at his preferred number.
Bairstow/Stokes/Ali is a rather decent 6/7/8
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Old 16th November 2015, 11:09   #44
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True, sorry, deleted my post. ...
It's still there in the replies of others.

I guess you just couldn't help yourself.

Amazing that some still seem to think any sort of successful transition involves test recalls for Morgan and Pietersen.

Morgan should never have been selected in the first place. I think he'd averaged about 24 in division 2 the previous season. With Pietersen, it has finally been realised that form cannot be the overriding criterion.

Transition, like any other team's, even in the era of central contracts, is managed pretty much as it has always been, mainly through selection. That is pretty much a constant. The variables are the people making the decisions.
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Old 16th November 2015, 11:11   #45
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The difference will be (you'll assume) is that he will be expected to go from ball one as Cook will be his partner. Seems like we have an obsession of trying to find a Warner to Cook's Rogers which we shouldn't be doing. If Hales comes in he needs to be told (and hopefully this will be something Bayliss and Farbrace say) to play himself in and not worry about getting the scoreboard ticking over from the word go.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:48   #46
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The difference will be (you'll assume) is that he will be expected to go from ball one as Cook will be his partner. Seems like we have an obsession of trying to find a Warner to Cook's Rogers which we shouldn't be doing. If Hales comes in he needs to be told (and hopefully this will be something Bayliss and Farbrace say) to play himself in and not worry about getting the scoreboard ticking over from the word go.
I think Hales if selected, should be allowed to play the way that led to his selection in the first place, not adhere to some pre-ordained plan from management. He'll have enough to think about facing Steyn and Morkel without worrying too much about what his scoring rate is.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:50   #47
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Don't think Hales has played as a ball 1 biffer in CC and he's not really done so in ODIs either so don't think it's really a worry that he'll be too aggressive as a consistent failing. He may have problems with shot selection but that's a different thing. Hard to see how he's not going to get a go at least over the SA tour given how everyone else tried has gone.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:53   #48
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I think Hales if selected, should be allowed to play the way that led to his selection in the first place, not adhere to some pre-ordained plan from management. He'll have enough to think about facing Steyn and Morkel without worrying too much about what his scoring rate is.
You'd hope so but Moeen certainly didn't play that way in the UAE. Of course that might be coz Moeen isn't really an adaptable cricketer.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:54   #49
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Don't think Hales has played as a ball 1 biffer in CC and he's not really done so in ODIs either so don't think it's really a worry that he'll be too aggressive as a consistent failing. He may have problems with shot selection but that's a different thing. Hard to see how he's not going to get a go at least over the SA tour given how everyone else tried has gone.
I'd have stuck with Lyth for the UAE. I would've also opened with him in the Windies.

The opening batsman situation has been the poorest handled one for a good few years now.
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Old 16th November 2015, 12:58   #50
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I'd have stuck with Lyth for the UAE. I would've also opened with him in the Windies.

The opening batsman situation has been the poorest handled one for a good few years now.
Most teams struggle to find openers, it's a pretty tough gig and none that England have tried have had much success. Can't really blame the selectors but could blame whoever is responsible for the wickets in CC which I think makes it hard for young openers to develop.
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Old 16th November 2015, 13:12   #51
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Most teams struggle to find openers, it's a pretty tough gig and none that England have tried have had much success. Can't really blame the selectors but could blame whoever is responsible for the wickets in CC which I think makes it hard for young openers to develop.
The problem is that, other than Root who we can't pick to open as it would open a door for a Capey return, there just isn't anyone good enough.

No-one fancied Lyth, but the selectors felt obliged to pick him as he'd enjoyed a lot of success. Same with Compton who was picked after a hot spell etc. And it's not even as if any of them had a second string to their bow or were even good fielders (Carberry being a particular disappointment as he had a good reputation).

What we need is for someone like Lees who has long been earmarked as a future test player to match their talent with runs.
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Old 16th November 2015, 13:12   #52
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I'd have stuck with Lyth for the UAE. I would've also opened with him in the Windies.

The opening batsman situation has been the poorest handled one for a good few years now.
I think that if it's been mishandled then this has largely been in the sense that there's been an obvious desire to find a partner with whom Cook might open for the rest of his test career. In other words, younger players have been treated in a different way to older players. If Compton or Carberry were youngsters I don't think they would have been ditched as soon as they were, and it may be that if Lyth or Robson were older they would have been ditched a test or two earlier, since they both looked beaten for a little while before they were dropped. In my view it's bad policy to pick for the series after next or the series after that, since there are so many imponderables in the meantime; so I think there is some legitimate criticism of the selectors there. But all the same, with the opening position in particular it is easy to see why they would have taken the line they did, since stability there is a real foundation to build the team upon. In the end I think they've been a bit unlucky that none of those four named players -- or Joe Root -- have managed to put the matter beyond doubt. Having said that, though, recalling Trott as opener and asking Moeen to open were two of the worst ideas any England selector has had in living memory.
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Old 16th November 2015, 14:02   #53
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The problem is that, other than Root who we can't pick to open as it would open a door for a Capey return, there just isn't anyone good enough.

No-one fancied Lyth, but the selectors felt obliged to pick him as he'd enjoyed a lot of success. Same with Compton who was picked after a hot spell etc. And it's not even as if any of them had a second string to their bow or were even good fielders (Carberry being a particular disappointment as he had a good reputation).

What we need is for someone like Lees who has long been earmarked as a future test player to match their talent with runs.
I think that door has finally been locked.

It may be a while before we find a long term opening partner for Cook and it may be that whoever it turns out to be, if anyone, will need a fair amount of good fortune in his first few matches.
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Old 16th November 2015, 14:52   #54
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I think that if it's been mishandled then this has largely been in the sense that there's been an obvious desire to find a partner with whom Cook might open for the rest of his test career. In other words, younger players have been treated in a different way to older players. If Compton or Carberry were youngsters I don't think they would have been ditched as soon as they were, and it may be that if Lyth or Robson were older they would have been ditched a test or two earlier, since they both looked beaten for a little while before they were dropped. In my view it's bad policy to pick for the series after next or the series after that, since there are so many imponderables in the meantime; so I think there is some legitimate criticism of the selectors there. But all the same, with the opening position in particular it is easy to see why they would have taken the line they did, since stability there is a real foundation to build the team upon. In the end I think they've been a bit unlucky that none of those four named players -- or Joe Root -- have managed to put the matter beyond doubt. Having said that, though, recalling Trott as opener and asking Moeen to open were two of the worst ideas any England selector has had in living memory.
I think you're quite right in this post. I'm not sure we agree overall about Compton and Carberry (the latter I thought was a dodgy pick to tour in the first place) but certainly somewhat of a case was makeable for both to get longer.

I can see what they were doing with Trott but it was a bad idea both for him and the team and Moeen opening was an even more terrible idea than that.

I see Zebby's point above and certainly also thought he should have opened in WI but Lyth didn't just have an utterly terrible Ashes series but also looked like he had insufficient judgement outside off stump for the position. He was being beaten in the channel all the time and on the rare occasions when he got set, he often found a stupid way to get out. I've no huge faith in Hales but he seems a far better choice than trying Lyth again.
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Old 16th November 2015, 16:08   #55
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Good luck to Hales if he's to be the next cab off the rank and I hope my assessment of his ability to do the job turns out to be completely wrong.
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Old 16th November 2015, 16:52   #56
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it may be that whoever it turns out to be, if anyone, will need a fair amount of good fortune in his first few matches.
This is surely the case with all opening batsmen? Yes, knowing where your off stump is and what the bounce is like is incredibly important but you'll see opening bats play and miss regularly during a new ball spell. Cook does it frequently but then settles down to a rhythm. Unfortunately for England we haven't found anyone capable of getting beyond the new ball spells regularly since Michael Carberry and for reasons known only to them the selectors decided not to bother with him.

Should Hales be the man then hopefully he'll just play his own way. Take his time to start with and then play his shots when well set. Sounds like Philander will miss the start of the series so only Steyn, Morkel and the young tyke Rabada to contend with.
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Old 16th November 2015, 17:41   #57
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The thing with transitions is that you hope the future you are transitioning to is better than the past you've transitioned from.

One wonders, however, whether a lineup of

Carberry
Cook
Compton
Root
KP
Bell
Read

would be any worse than one we can currently assemble from Cook and Root, Bell at 3 and any combination of the young pups.
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Old 16th November 2015, 19:20   #58
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The thing with transitions is that you hope the future you are transitioning to is better than the past you've transitioned from.

One wonders, however, whether a lineup of

Carberry
Cook
Compton
Root
KP
Bell
Read

would be any worse than one we can currently assemble from Cook and Root, Bell at 3 and any combination of the young pups.
I'll take the bait on Read, who would bat at 8 below whichever of Ali and Stokes was playing (or at 9 if they both played). It's a better line up than any current one though, yes, given how bad with the bat our keepers have been and how dramatically inferior to Pietersen the middle order alternatives are. I say that not particularly rating Compton or Carberry and thinking Read is a rabbit at test level too.
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Old 17th November 2015, 17:45   #59
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One imagines Carberry or Compton might at least be good for the odd 50, something which you'd struggle to say for the alternatives tried recently. Bell at six would probably be happier and while read might not score any more than B&B, he'd make up for it with his superior keeping.
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Old 17th November 2015, 19:18   #60
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One imagines Carberry or Compton might at least be good for the odd 50, something which you'd struggle to say for the alternatives tried recently. Bell at six would probably be happier and while read might not score any more than B&B, he'd make up for it with his superior keeping.
You need a world class first slip though with Read keeping as he doesn't take anything he has to dive for.
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