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Old 21st December 2015, 12:32   #181
Chin Music
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None of our bowlers are that bad with the bat but given that the conversation was in the abstract, it was a fair enough counter question. If you're only playing 4 bowlers you can probably pretty much ignore how 3 of them bat, as long as they're very clearly 3 of the best 4. Bit different if you're picking 5 of them.
It could be argue that if you pick Ben Stokes you are picking someone who is neither one of the 5 best bowlers or 6 best batsmen. I'd also argue the same was true with Ali.
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Old 21st December 2015, 13:35   #182
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Stokes seems to be enjoying South African wickets.
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Old 21st December 2015, 13:44   #183
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It could be argue that if you pick Ben Stokes you are picking someone who is neither one of the 5 best bowlers or 6 best batsmen. I'd also argue the same was true with Ali.
Have you seen our batting stocks? Stokes probably is one of the best 6.
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Old 21st December 2015, 13:57   #184
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England motoring now. 100 partnership from Root and Stokes in about 15 overs.
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Old 21st December 2015, 13:59   #185
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Have you seen our batting stocks? Stokes probably is one of the best 6.
Well he's had a good knock again in SA. I had a bit of an agenda. I was first hoping to draw MF into discussing the 6 best batsmen referring to 1 or maybe even 2 players not in the team. Referring to Ali as not being one of either the 6 best batsmen or 5 best bowlers was hoping to get Sir Virgs to go into one. Although I leave much of this alone these days, there is only so much a leopard can change his spots....
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Old 21st December 2015, 14:16   #186
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Root out for 117 and Cook has declared. I like the idea of playing for a victory but I thought Bairstow and Moeen would get an opportunity to bat.
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Old 21st December 2015, 14:20   #187
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Root out for 117 and Cook has declared. I like the idea of playing for a victory but I thought Bairstow and Moeen would get an opportunity to bat.
Me too. You would have thought that at least 30 mins or so at the crease would have made sense.
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Old 21st December 2015, 14:31   #188
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He bowled 73 overs for Lancs just before leaving for the UAE.

No bowling for 3 weeks before NZ - 6 for 43.00
No bowling for 5 weeks before Ashes first 2 Tests 3 for 71.00.

Broad seems to do fine whether he has overs under his belt or not.
Broad does better at the end of series. Whether that's because he's had time to work over batsmen or got more miles in the legs I'm not sure but his average in the 4th and 5th test matches of series is far better (and remember that England only play 4th and 5th test matches against the better sides) whilst Anderson's tails off.

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Have you seen our batting stocks? Stokes probably is one of the best 6.
On the evidence of Trent Bridge, he's one of our 5 best bowlers as well.

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Root out for 117 and Cook has declared. I like the idea of playing for a victory but I thought Bairstow and Moeen would get an opportunity to bat.
I'm more concerned about Broad and Anderson having a bat. I don't like the idea of our tail facing Steyn and Morkel when they've had one innings of 7 balls between them since 01 November.
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Old 21st December 2015, 14:39   #189
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No heroic resistance from Cook this time - bowled by Broad for 1.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:12   #190
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Late wicket for Moeen and SA A finish the day on 35-2. Hopefully Steven Finn will get an extended bowl on day 3, although I think the forecast is a bit iffy.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:50   #191
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Sounded like a Jaffa from mo. Fingers crossed for a good series from him.
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Old 21st December 2015, 15:55   #192
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Picking the best five bowlers (the clue is wicket-taking) and the best six batsmen is the most likely way to win the match. These days you don't get five bowlers all of whom average 6 or less with the bat.
That is complete nonsense though. In my example said "if the bowlers all averaged 6" then you can't just ignore them. Your "these days" line is true because no side will pick 5 bowlers based on solely their bowling. Imagine a green top and being 30 for 3 with Jimmy at 7.
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Old 21st December 2015, 18:17   #193
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That is complete nonsense though. In my example said "if the bowlers all averaged 6" then you can't just ignore them. Your "these days" line is true because no side will pick 5 bowlers based on solely their bowling. Imagine a green top and being 30 for 3 with Jimmy at 7.
You've been, in most cases correctly, critical of hypothetical debates when it comes to the English spinner. Perhaps wise to heed your own advice here too.
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Old 21st December 2015, 18:39   #194
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You've been, in most cases correctly, critical of hypothetical debates when it comes to the English spinner. Perhaps wise to heed your own advice here too.
Name me a side in test history where the side was picked based on the best six batsmen and the best five bowlers. That will be very very very hard. If you can I bet they are crap.
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:03   #195
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If the keeper can't bat where does that leave the 6 best batsmen and 5 best bowlers theory? The best teams generally have 5 top notch batsmen, 4 bowlers, a keeper who can bat a bit and an all rounder.
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:08   #196
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Name me a side in test history where the side was picked based on the best six batsmen and the best five bowlers. That will be very very very hard. If you can I bet they are crap.
South Africa in the late 90s, or are you going to argue that Kallis wasn't amongst their best batsmen or bowlers?

Pollock and Klusener were bowling all-rounders but clearly amongst their best bowlers. Boucher would have played as a batsman (and scored more runs).


Or how about the great West Indian side of the 50s with the 3 Ws and Sobers?
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:14   #197
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Name me a side in test history where the side was picked based on the best six batsmen and the best five bowlers. That will be very very very hard. If you can I bet they are crap.
It's probably less rare than you suggest but I'm not going to bother as its not my argument. I think it would be more challenging to find a national system where the best five bowlers are also all the biggest rabbits in the domestic structure, certainly not in the modern era.
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:20   #198
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Name me a side in test history where the side was picked based on the best six batsmen and the best five bowlers. That will be very very very hard. If you can I bet they are crap.
Well given that we've not even mentioned a keeper, it seems unlikely. Might well have been a time when Geraint Jones was in England's top 6 best batsmen and Flintoff and Giles in the best five bowlers though.
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Old 21st December 2015, 19:32   #199
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Well given that we've not even mentioned a keeper, it seems unlikely. Might well have been a time when Geraint Jones was in England's top 6 best batsmen and Flintoff and Giles in the best five bowlers though.
By 2005 the side probably did feature the best five bowlers (as much as people like to denigrate Giles he was way ahead of his contemporaries). Less convinced that we selected the best six or seven batsmen whenever GoJo or Flintoff were in the side.
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Old 21st December 2015, 20:01   #200
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South Africa in the late 90s, or are you going to argue that Kallis wasn't amongst their best batsmen or bowlers?

Pollock and Klusener were bowling all-rounders but clearly amongst their best bowlers. Boucher would have played as a batsman (and scored more runs).


Or how about the great West Indian side of the 50s with the 3 Ws and Sobers?
If Boje was one of the best 5 bowlers in South Africa then I am the pope.
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