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Old 18th December 2015, 12:18   #121
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Originally Posted by square leg umpire View Post
In that series he got on big score and that after he was dropped early in the innings. After that they moved him down.
He was dropped early in the innings of the 1st test at Cardiff of course. After a couple of tests they moved him up one position to 4. This is the the slight bee in my bonnet I have about him supposedly being "established" at 4 is that its only been 6 tests. He's obviously done enough to prove that he is a high quality player at one of the tougher batting slots further up the order. I have no doubts that if he moved to 3 he good do a job there too. I really think that England will be revisiting at least 1 of the top 3 batting slots in the series, and probably 2.

Oh and no it won't be about questioning Cook's place in the side even if he has a poor series there.
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Old 18th December 2015, 12:37   #122
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He was dropped early in the innings of the 1st test at Cardiff of course. After a couple of tests they moved him up one position to 4. This is the the slight bee in my bonnet I have about him supposedly being "established" at 4 is that its only been 6 tests. He's obviously done enough to prove that he is a high quality player at one of the tougher batting slots further up the order. I have no doubts that if he moved to 3 he good do a job there too. I really think that England will be revisiting at least 1 of the top 3 batting slots in the series, and probably 2. ...
Well, we'll see. For now, there's no need to behave as if our hunches about Hales and/or Compton have been confirmed, since those hunches are not about some cruddy warm up match, or about ODI or test performance in the past, but about England's test performance going forward. The other thing to remember about hunches is that their not yet having been disproved doesn't really mean much either. In any case, it's clear that the England selectors / management want Root at 4 for now, and are happy enough to bring other players into the squad and bat them above him.
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Old 18th December 2015, 12:54   #123
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Well, we'll see. For now, there's no need to behave as if our hunches about Hales and/or Compton have been confirmed, since those hunches are not about some cruddy warm up match, or about ODI or test performance in the past, but about England's test performance going forward. The other thing to remember about hunches is that their not yet having been disproved doesn't really mean much either. In any case, it's clear that the England selectors / management want Root at 4 for now, and are happy enough to bring other players into the squad and bat them above him.
I don't evaluate either Hales or Compton based on a warm-up match nor is it about ODIs either. More an educated guess than an outright "hunch". Hales has never struck me as an upper order test match player based on his technique. Compton can do a dour job as either an opener or no.3 but there will be times where, even if he stays in the scoreboard just won't move, especially if he's batting with Cook. We do at least have some previous thereby stopping such an evaluation being a "hunch".
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Old 18th December 2015, 15:56   #124
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I don't evaluate either Hales or Compton based on a warm-up match nor is it about ODIs either. More an educated guess than an outright "hunch". Hales has never struck me as an upper order test match player based on his technique. Compton can do a dour job as either an opener or no.3 but there will be times where, even if he stays in the scoreboard just won't move, especially if he's batting with Cook. We do at least have some previous thereby stopping such an evaluation being a "hunch".
OK. Regarding Cook, I think he's pretty good now at ticking along at a strike rate of about 50 under most circumstances.
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Old 18th December 2015, 16:50   #125
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The way I look at it, who are the best five batsmen in the squad. Root, Cook, then Taylor, then Buttler, then Ballance, then Bairstow, followed by Ali, Compton and finally Hales.

Pick the best five, Stokes and a keeper and then work out the batting order.
Compton & Hayles >> Ali
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Old 18th December 2015, 19:04   #126
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Looks like Steyn and Finn might be fit for the vast majority of this tour. It would be lovely (and a relief for England) if Finn does well. This applies doubly to Compton in the opening or 3 spot.

I can't see anything except another string of tests where we're 30-3 in no time, though. Hales? Maybe even Ballance at 3 again? Yikes.
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Old 18th December 2015, 19:54   #127
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Compton & Hayles >> Ali
Based on what? Neither of them being spinners?
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Old 18th December 2015, 23:32   #128
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In that series he got on big score and that after he was dropped early in the innings. After that they moved him down.
No they didn't. He batted every innings as opener on that series.
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Old 19th December 2015, 09:29   #129
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'm not convinced with Hales either, but with his success in international limited overs cricket
I can only assume you mean T20Is because his ODI record is patchy at best :

Hales

24 ODIs, 579 runs @ 25.17 (100 x1, 50 x2) SR 86.94
37 T20Is, 1111 runs @ 34.72 (100 x1, 50 x7) SR 132.74

That T20I average is boosted a bit by 5 not outs, including his HS of 116no. Whether either record in conjuction with his county record makes him a Test batsman I doubt.

Can't believe some are advocating that Lyth should have been persisted with, compared to the other trieds and failed as openers he was the weakest and 40% of his runs came in his only hundred.


Lyth (7 Tests) 265 runs @ 20.38 (100 x1, 50 x0)
Made only one duck, but after a hundred in his 2nd Test his run of scores were 24, 6, 37, 0, 7, 10, 12, 14, 19 and 10 (139 runs @ 13.90)

Robson (7 Tests) 336 runs @ 30.55 (100 x1, 50 x1)
Also made a hundred in his 2nd Test, never out for a duck and whilst his scores were not great afterwards, 189 runs @ 23.63 was better than Lyth.

Compton (9 Tests) 479 runs @ 31.93 (100 x2, 50 x1)
Slightly better average than Robson, but after back to back hundreds which make up 45% of his total runs, he made 54 runs in 6 innings @ 9.00. At an age higher than his batting average he is lucky to be recalled and needs to make something of it, if it matches his whinging to the media then we'll be quids in.

Ali (3 Tests) 84 runs @ 14.00 (100 x0, 50 x0)
Included more for completeness, this experiment failed as miserably as other ODI players with little batting quality may do.

Root (5 Tests) 339 runs @ 37.67 (100 x1, 50 x1)
Many did not like seeing Root open, but he did a decent job which isn't too big a surprise as he is Test quality and some. It is only right and fair to point out 180 of those 339 runs came in one innings, in half of his innings he made 11 runs or less without any ducks.



Some will argue Compton was unlucky, a shoe in, can't see where persisting with Lyth would have got England and some of the decisions look ropey at best - like opening with Ali. Lyth was fortunate not to be dropped after Edgbaston, some might argue he could have been dropped after Lords.

Mightn't have been so painful if he hadn't faced 30 balls for 10 runs, 28 for 12, and 33 for 10 runs in his final innings. Sure you expect openers to see off the new ball, but having faced that many balls and to get out is (less than) half the job done.

What's the answer? Tough one, but picking a 32 year old with a modest average, or a ODI opener with a weak average, or trying a batsman who hasn't established himself in any international format isn't.

I'd have leaned towards recalling Robson if I was going down that route, six years junior to Compton and whilst his record is not great, it's not that bad and he at least made some kind of score in around half his innings (127, 24, 59, 26 and 37) - Compton for the record managed 24+ in 7 of his 17 innings, but not once in his last six
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Old 19th December 2015, 09:35   #130
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I don't think dismissing a 116* as "boosting your average" is fair in a t20 is it? I am all for arguing hales is not a test player but he has done pretty well in t20i and played a few amazing innings.
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Old 19th December 2015, 10:14   #131
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I don't think dismissing a 116* as "boosting your average" is fair in a t20 is it? I am all for arguing hales is not a test player but he has done pretty well in t20i and played a few amazing innings.
If you want to prove someone isn't very good then taking out all their best performances will sure help.
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Old 19th December 2015, 11:30   #132
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If you want to prove someone isn't very good then taking out all their best performances will sure help.
It sure helps demonstrate that you're not really interested in a proper analysis but are trying to prove a point, anyway.
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Old 19th December 2015, 14:27   #133
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Scyld Berry

Another possibility exists . If Alex Hales fails again here to look the part of a Test opener, Moeen Ali could continue in that position . This would allow England to play four seamers, and Ben Stokes, and not a long tail as Woakes would be at eight and Broad nine. Given the over-demanding schedule, and the temperature in Durban it could be 40C (104F) six bowlers would not come amiss.


Hasn't a clue.
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Old 19th December 2015, 15:25   #134
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Berry is entertainingly crazy.
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Old 19th December 2015, 15:38   #135
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Letting Moeen continue is basically equivalent to giving up on the opening spot and accepting that we'll perpetually be 30/1 at least. This would be fine-ish if it weren't for the fact that he's made amazing contributions from No 8. On results alone he makes it into the side as a specialist batsman... Wasn't he the third leading run-scorer in the Ashes? (For England)
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Old 19th December 2015, 22:06   #136
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No they didn't. He batted every innings as opener on that series.
After the series.
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Old 20th December 2015, 00:25   #137
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Scyld Berry

Another possibility exists . If Alex Hales fails again here to look the part of a Test opener, Moeen Ali could continue in that position . This would allow England to play four seamers, and Ben Stokes, and not a long tail as Woakes would be at eight and Broad nine. Given the over-demanding schedule, and the temperature in Durban it could be 40C (104F) six bowlers would not come amiss.


Hasn't a clue.
Lol. Goodness me. Now we need SIX bowlers. Brilliant. I can't believe that anyone seriously thinks moeen could nor should open. He is a fine number 8 and the best spin option we have so plays. Woakes 9 broad 10 and Jimmy 11. Stokes obviously plays.
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Old 20th December 2015, 01:06   #138
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Lol. Goodness me. Now we need SIX bowlers. Brilliant. I can't believe that anyone seriously thinks moeen could nor should open. He is a fine number 8 and the best spin option we have so plays. Woakes 9 broad 10 and Jimmy 11. Stokes obviously plays.
You have forgotten a bowler
Ali Stokes Woakes Broad Finn Anderson
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Old 20th December 2015, 08:31   #139
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Broad, Footitt and Finn are the frontline seamers selected against SA A so it looks like Footitt and Finn are competing for one place (unless they both bowl rubbish then Woakes will play). Anderson will go into the first test with just 5 overs under his belt.
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Old 20th December 2015, 10:32   #140
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All three with a wicket so far. I wonder if Stephen Cook might get a call up at last this series?
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