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View Poll Results: Is it a good decision to move Joe Root up to #3?
Yes 11 84.62%
No 2 15.38%
Voters: 13. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 8th July 2016, 15:41   #1
Psyduck
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Is it a good decision to move Joe Root up to #3?

There's already been a bit of discussion about this on various threads but I wondered what the consensus was. I personally think the whole "your best player bats at 3" argument is nonsense but, in the absence of many sensible alternatives, I think the time is right for Joe to step up.
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Old 8th July 2016, 15:43   #2
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With the squad we've gone in with, definitely. I'd argue that selecting Borthwick at 3 would have made more sense than recalling Ballance, irrespective of the fact that the former's very recent form is worse than the latter's.
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Old 8th July 2016, 15:44   #3
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With the squad we've gone in with, definitely. I'd argue that selecting Borthwick at 3 would have made more sense than recalling Ballance, irrespective of the fact that the former's very recent form is worse than the latter's.
Posters were lining up to say Buttler, Test average30 should be back in the side. Why not Ballance, Test average 48?
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Old 8th July 2016, 15:55   #4
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Posters were lining up to say Buttler, Test average30 should be back in the side. Why not Ballance, Test average 48?
I wasn't in that line so I don't really have to defend it but Buttler did do very well in the limited overs games, including with the gloves and replacing Bairstow as keeper would have to tempt anyone who watched his keeping against Sri Lanka and more generally so it's not comparing like with like to look at the test averages in terms of overall effect on the side. It's also clearly not the case that a test average, especially from a short test career, is necessarily an accurate predictor of future returns. While I think we're also prone to make too much of recent, especially very recent form, would you not be concerned that Ballance hasn't looked terribly like scoring big runs in county cricket this season and seemed hopelessly at sea technically when he last played tests?
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:04   #5
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Posters were lining up to say Buttler, Test average30 should be back in the side. Why not Ballance, Test average 48?
Do you think Ballance will be a success this series?
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It was a poor innings by Bell with the bat.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:06   #6
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There's already been a bit of discussion about this on various threads but I wondered what the consensus was. I personally think the whole "your best player bats at 3" argument is nonsense but, in the absence of many sensible alternatives, I think the time is right for Joe to step up.
I agree that that argument is nonsense. Indeed, off the top of my head I can't remember a time when England's best player batted at 3. Usually England's best player is a bowler anyway. Quite apart from the question of whether or not Root is our best batsman -- a question for which I don't think there would ever be a necessity to find an answer, except if it were in order to work out who bats at 3 (incidentally, on the subject of pointless Root memes, it was good to hear Swann and Smith [I think] on TMS both trashing the idea that Root should be our next test captain) -- the real question is whether Root is suited to bat in the top order. On the whole I think not, especially at home; in principle I would prefer to go in with three openers at the top of the order. It's odd that both Root (this will make twice) and Ballance have both been shoved up too high recently, when there are actually quite a lot of good openers around in county cricket. In the short term I'd prefer to put Ali at 3, as he's in the side for his batting and that's where he bats for his county. Vince is the other no. 3 in the squad, but it's probably best to leave him where he is for now, while he continues trying to find his feet. I wouldn't be surprised if Root does well at 3 though. He's a fine player.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:15   #7
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I agree that that argument is nonsense. Indeed, off the top of my head I can't remember a time when England's best player batted at 3. Usually England's best player is a bowler anyway. Quite apart from the question of whether or not Root is our best batsman -- a question for which I don't think there would ever be a necessity to find an answer, except if it were in order to work out who bats at 3 (incidentally, on the subject of pointless Root memes, it was good to hear Swann and Smith [I think] on TMS both trashing the idea that Root should be our next test captain) -- the real question is whether Root is suited to bat in the top order. On the whole I think not, especially at home; in principle I would prefer to go in with three openers at the top of the order. It's odd that both Root (this will make twice) and Ballance have both been shoved up too high recently, when there are actually quite a lot of good openers around in county cricket. In the short term I'd prefer to put Ali at 3, as he's in the side for his batting and that's where he bats for his county. Vince is the other no. 3 in the squad, but it's probably best to leave him where he is for now, while he continues trying to find his feet. I wouldn't be surprised if Root does well at 3 though. He's a fine player.
Which county opener would you go with?
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:19   #8
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Which county opener would you go with?
Hameed
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:33   #9
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I'd have picked Borthwick and played him at three but given the squad they have picked I'd rather have him there than Ballance or Vince.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:46   #10
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Hameed
Interesting.

Have you seen him yet?

My suspicion (and it's only that) is that he's not quite there yet. I have high hopes for him though and have been very impressed with his progress. He would be the youngest England test cricketer for 67 years.

He would also be the least experienced England test player (13 fc matches) since Darren Pattison and Ben Hollioake (12 fc matches), but both had List A cricket whereas Hameed has yet to feature in that format.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:46   #11
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With the squad we've gone in with, definitely. I'd argue that selecting Borthwick at 3 would have made more sense than recalling Ballance, irrespective of the fact that the former's very recent form is worse than the latter's.
I'm desperately disappointed that Ballance has been recalled for this Test.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:55   #12
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Interesting.

Have you seen him yet?

My suspicion (and it's only that) is that he's not quite there yet. I have high hopes for him though and have been very impressed with his progress. He would be the youngest England test cricketer for 67 years.

He would also be the least experienced England test player (13 fc matches) since Darren Pattison and Ben Hollioake (12 fc matches), but both had List A cricket whereas Hameed has yet to feature in that format.
I had him annoyingly lurking and flickering at the corner of my screen for far too many hours a few days ago, as he gradually removed Notts's victory hopes. But I know it's traditional for England players to be given quite a long time to deselect themselves before being considered.
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Old 8th July 2016, 16:57   #13
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I'm desperately disappointed that Ballance has been recalled for this Test.
It's possible that sager judges than you and I have watched him loads this season and think that he's batted a lot better than his returns have suggested but I think it's very unlikely and therefore I too am deeply unimpressed. That he has a fair bit about him as a batsman is not in doubt but if he can't showcase it in the FC game I don't think he's made the case for a test recall at all. Perhaps they dropped him earlier than they might have done given his credit in the bank for previous success but I can't see what's changed to make them think he should come back in. Other people doing badly just isn't enough of a reason. Recall Bell if that's your rationale.
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Old 8th July 2016, 17:02   #14
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It's possible that sager judges than you and I have watched him loads this season and think that he's batted a lot better than his returns have suggested but I think it's very unlikely and therefore I too am deeply unimpressed. That he has a fair bit about him as a batsman is not in doubt but if he can't showcase it in the FC game I don't think he's made the case for a test recall at all. Perhaps they dropped him earlier than they might have done given his credit in the bank for previous success but I can't see what's changed to make them think he should come back in. Other people doing badly just isn't enough of a reason. Recall Bell if that's your rationale.
It's got nothing to do with his Test suitability, I was just really looking forward to seeing him play for Yorks at The Oval this week !!
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Old 8th July 2016, 17:05   #15
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It's got nothing to do with his Test suitability, I was just really looking forward to seeing him play for Yorks at The Oval this week !!
I did wonder why you'd got quite so exercised about it. Well done for sucking me in. I, by contrast, will be at Lord's on the Saturday to see him and I'd prefer not to be (seeing him that is, I'm very excited indeed to be going to Lord's).
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Old 8th July 2016, 17:13   #16
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I did wonder why you'd got quite so exercised about it. Well done for sucking me in. I, by contrast, will be at Lord's on the Saturday to see him and I'd prefer not to be (seeing him that is, I'm very excited indeed to be going to Lord's).
Ha, ha, sorry!

I saw one of Ballance's Test hundreds at Lord's and also county tons at The Oval and Hove. Maybe the ECB should give me a free 'lucky mascot' VIP ticket?
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Old 8th July 2016, 17:26   #17
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But I know it's traditional for England players to be given quite a long time to deselect themselves before being considered.
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Old 8th July 2016, 17:40   #18
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Ha, ha, sorry!

I saw one of Ballance's Test hundreds at Lord's and also county tons at The Oval and Hove. Maybe the ECB should give me a free 'lucky mascot' VIP ticket?
Good thought. I got my tickets, one adult one child, from a friend who now has family things he can't get out of that day. I had thought I would take a friend and upgrade the child to adult (questionable mentally but he's over 40 so couldn't easily be smuggled in in a cap and shorts). As it turns out though, my son is with me that weekend so I've had to buy an extra adult ticket for my friend in the same stand. Hopefully we can shuffle ourselves around enough to sit together at lest some of the time.
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Old 9th July 2016, 08:14   #19
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Good thought. I got my tickets, one adult one child, from a friend who now has family things he can't get out of that day. I had thought I would take a friend and upgrade the child to adult (questionable mentally but he's over 40 so couldn't easily be smuggled in in a cap and shorts). As it turns out though, my son is with me that weekend so I've had to buy an extra adult ticket for my friend in the same stand. Hopefully we can shuffle ourselves around enough to sit together at lest some of the time.
I'm going to the Oval test this year. The excitement for me would be watching the Pakistani attack. Even though as an England fan I was gutted at the result, I was at the Oval in 92 when the 2 W's did their stuff and I was at Lord's four years later when on the last day Waqar and Mr Mushy did the business. Class bowling is class bowling and as a cricket fan and fast bowling tragic a beautiful sight when done by the highest class practitioners.

It is hard to know if Amir is truly in the class of Wasim and he certainly can't be regarded as that at this point. The potential is obvious though. The best spell of bowling in the series in the UAE was the spell from Wahab that burst through England on a featherbed. Wahab though, is possibly a bowler of great spells rather than being a truly great bowler. Yasir will of course be a big threat too.

Oh and Root should bat at 3. Much talk of how he failed further up the order at the start of his career. He is a far, far better player now and I have less worries with him batting there than other candidates.
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Old 9th July 2016, 08:28   #20
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Root should go to three but will need to focus a little more than he has recently and avoid lapses of concentration. With Cook unlikely to be sticking around much v Amir, Root will essentially be playing as opener most of the time anyhow.
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